Navigating Imposter Syndrome and Psychological Safety in the Workplace with Caroline Crawford [Episode 130]

Lauren Tingle 0:00
So I have such a treat on the podcast today. My dear friend, Caroline Crawford is an old camp friend of mine, we went to and worked at the same camp in North Carolina, growing up and through college. And she is a dynamic personality, and it has now transformed into this public speaker.

Lauren Tingle 0:20
And it’s so funny to come from the college days where you like, don’t really know what you’re going to do with your life to now we are full blown adults and to see her gifts come alive. Being a speaker and a consultant for these big companies that I’m gonna tell you about is really cool. Like, it just makes me so proud to be her friend.

Lauren Tingle 0:38
So I am going to welcome Caroline Crawford on to High School Counseling Conversations today, because you’ll see from her background with licensed social work, and just her clinical side, it really transfers into business cultures. And I think it comes a lot full circle over to us in school counseling and high school counseling specifically, she’s got a lot of good things to say.

Lauren Tingle 1:01
And so let me introduce you to Caroline. She’s a coach and a clinician and as a coach, she understands the necessity of aligning needs, strengths and values to fulfill true professional and personal potential. Now I know you’re like, yes, I want to feel that professional potential. And that personal potential, you’re going to hear that come through in our conversation.

Lauren Tingle 1:22
And so here’s kind of her background. Caroline has worked in the people field for over a decade, and we’re working in the people field too, right? From camp director to managing 200 counselors to the chief program officer of a nonprofit in charge of over 6000 people, Caroline knows the importance of creating a culture based on emotional intelligence and psychological safety. You’ll hear her talk about that in our conversation.

Lauren Tingle 1:45
She’s learned to wear many hats and how to put out fires. She knows how to inspire teams and influence those around her. She knows how to unlock potential and empower others to use their voice. She sees the need to understand oneself first before positively leading others and she’s aware that all of this takes work.

Lauren Tingle 2:02
So here’s her background. Caroline began her journey with her graduate degree from the University of Texas for clinical social work. After that, she knew she wanted to learn more. So she continued her journey with different courses like Yale University’s fostering inclusion and diversity and the society of emotional intelligence is EQ i 2.0, and EQ 360 course. So Caroline is a continued learner, and she brings a lot of research and knowledge and experience to our conversation today.

Lauren Tingle 2:33
I know you’re gonna love hearing from Caroline, and I’m just gonna say this before we get started. It’s really weird for me to call her Caroline, because our camp names you know, just names that just stick with you. She was always Craw to me, just a shortened version of her last name. So this is my conversation with Craw, she would always call me by my maiden last name. And so this was a, this was a different experience calling each other professionally by our first names. So I know you’re gonna enjoy this conversation. It is so good. And I can’t wait to hear what you take away from it.

Lauren Tingle 3:11
Hey, Caroline, I am so excited to have you on the podcast. I think that you’re going to offer so much to these high school counselors who are listening with your background in social work. And then the work that you’re doing with bigger like company cultures. I just know that you’re gonna bring a lot to the table today to our conversation.

Caroline 4:00
Thank you, Lauren. I’m happy to be here. Yeah, like you said, my background as an LMSW so Licensed Master Social Sorker, and then a certified positive psychology coach. Worked in the nonprofit space in the camp world and empowering youth for over a decade and then moved into working with adults just in the past few years.

Lauren Tingle 4:19
OKay, so you worked with like younger people, older people, do you have a preference or you’re like, Okay, now these older people act like young young high schoolers, though you have the best of all worlds?

Caroline 4:31
Well, that’s exactly what happened. I was chief program officer of a nonprofit called Girls Empowerment Network in Austin, Texas. And I was creating curriculum, and I was actually working with school counselors every day, coming in and doing groups with them. And what I realized was all of these companies that were giving us grants that were giving us money as a nonprofit were saying we kind of want you to come and do something for our employees.

Caroline 4:53
And so I will tell you the curriculum I was creating for these young women ages eight to 18 and doing it with adults and their ERGs for their company retreats. And most of you all think, oh, growth mindset, self compassion, you know, just the idea of like leadership and clear communication and boundaries and accountability.

Caroline 5:12
And these things I was teaching the girls these adults don’t have them. So how am I going to send the girl into the working room, world of like the adults who are supposed to be there who are supposed to be their bosses, or their managers don’t aren’t aren’t doing them and aren’t, aren’t socially role modeling, not to them. So then I started my own business to work with adults.

Lauren Tingle 5:31
I love that. And so you’re probably seeing, you’re seeing the same things from like younger people to older people, that we all need help with the same things. And then you had some experience working in schools, and then like the business world.

Lauren Tingle 5:44
I would love to hear, you know, just when I brought you on the show, I was thinking, those culture things probably are the same in schools and in workplaces. Like when we’re talking about healthy work cultures, or toxic work cultures, what kind of like trends are you seeing there? And, and I’m just thinking, you tell us about like the corporate world, and then we can kind of switch over to school world and see how they align?

Caroline 6:10
Yeah, I actually really believe it’s all the same hat. You know, everyone’s like, Oh, I wear this hat and this professional space, or I wear this hat, because I’m in this professional space. And I’m like, it’s all the same hat.

Caroline 6:19
Google did research, probably about a decade ago now, where they are looking at the most successful teams like what makes a team successful. And what they found was it was psychological safety. You know, they thought it might be communication, or money or power, or whatever, but they thought it was psychological safety.

Caroline 6:35
Which is the ability to say, I don’t know, it’s the ability to say, No, it’s the ability to say help. It’s the ability to say something that is real. And what we know to be true is whether we’re in schools or in corporate spades, we can go into our boss, we can go with a colleague and say, Hey, this is what’s going on. And I feel supported, I feel connected, I feel authentic, I stay motivated. If I go in and say, Hey, this is what’s going on, and they say, deal with it, or figure it out, or I don’t believe you, well, then we feel unmotivated, right.

Caroline 7:07
And so any group that I work with, I always start with that foundational piece of psychological safety. But the only way we can create that in our spaces or in our culture is we got to first look in the mirror, we got to first say, Wait, what’s the story I’m telling myself? What is that inner critic? What’s that imposter that’s coming up that stopping me from saying no, because I don’t want to look like a fool?

Caroline 7:30
Or stopping me from saying no, I don’t agree with you. Because I don’t want to look like the bad guy. Right? It stops us. And so then we’re not creating psychological safety. So we have to start with ourselves.

Lauren Tingle 7:40
And I think of the principals that I’ve worked for who have mirrored that really well and exactly what you said, like I felt really safe by that. So like, when something did come up, I could go to them and share how I was really feeling. If I was shut down one time, or I could tell they weren’t being authentic and how they were leading people. I was like, I’m going to you and when I feel bad, or I need some help somewhere along the way, like you don’t know me.

Lauren Tingle 8:07
Yes, I never put language to that until when I had like a great principal. And then I had a harder to work for principal, I never made that connection, that that is what it was until I had left the school that psychological safety. And the that landing pad that that leadership gave me to make mistakes to say, hey, what about this idea? Just like that open communication, it’s a good thing. It’s like, just because you’re a leader doesn’t mean you have to be this like, authoritarian, totalitarian, like all this power in. That’s not what leads people well.

Caroline 8:41
No. And we also get like, so wrapped up in it, right? Because if we want to look a certain way, if that little voice in our head is saying, Hey, don’t look like a fool don’t look like a fraud, well, then we want to look a certain way. And so even that principal, right and say, Oh, wait, I’m the leader of the school. So I need to say, I have the answers.

Caroline 8:57
Or really what we see over and over again, in the research is leaders who say, I don’t know what do you think? Hmm. Or maybe I do have a good idea but I want to know what your ideas are, too. Yeah, by that it opens up a space. And it’s not even flowery BS. It’s actually biological.

Caroline 9:15
So I’m a nerd for neuroscience and our mirror neurons in our brain are constantly searching for that connection. And so beyond you know, there’s all the people who especially in the corporate space, they’re like, I don’t need help. I don’t need that connection. I just get stuff done. I don’t need you to validate me. I don’t need compliments. I don’t need words. Bla bla bla bla bla.

Lauren Tingle 9:36
We all know those people.

Caroline 9:37
Yep, exactly. But it’s actually biological. We do need it. Our mirror neurons go off. We need to feel that connection. We need to feel that safety to stay motivated.

Lauren Tingle 9:47
Totally. And I know you you’re like me, I don’t usually go into a space thinking like I’m gonna look dumb. I’m like, I’m not worried about it. I’m like, I probably will look dumb and like, will handle it and we’ll get through it.

Lauren Tingle 9:59
But my head spend is one of those who has that inner critic in his head who is like, don’t say the wrong thing, you’re going to let dumb, you’re going to say something that people are going to remember forever. And I have had to tell him, like, I don’t think it affects his leadership, really. But I mean, it would make him more timid to, you know, take a stance on something or go to somebody above him, he really needs that person above him to say, like, it’s okay for you to make a mistake, like, come in here and share your ideas.

Lauren Tingle 10:26
And, and he’s a smart and very capable person in the workplace. But he, he’s a great example of someone who like needs that permission to fail or permission to see somebody else fail in front of him.

Caroline 10:39
Right. And it can be a double edged sword, right? Because like, I constantly am working with my clients and lead from where you stand, right lead from where you stand. So if you want to be someone who has accountability, how do you show that to your peers? You want to be someone who has compassion? How do you show up to your peers?

Caroline 10:55
But I also took a course with Yale on diversity, equity inclusion, and one of the first things they talked about was, if you’re not having inclusive leaders, if they’re not socially role modeling, how to create those faces, at a certain point, you will hit that burnout because you can’t keep leading from your where you stand if you don’t feel that acceptance, or that that continuation or that flow of what you’re doing.

Lauren Tingle 11:20
Yeah. Can you think of some practical examples of that, like leading from inclusion? Like say someone is the department head of maybe like they’re over five counselors, or they want to envision what it would look like to work in a school with a principal or an administrator who is this inclusive leader? What would that look like in a school? How do they know they’re in a healthy place?

Caroline 11:38
Yeah, so one thing that I think about often is we do this so well only work with students. So we go in, let’s say, we’re leading a group after school group, or maybe it’s a grief group, or a group that is for the LGBTQ students, or whatever it might be, right? Like, we’re creating this group.

Caroline 11:54
So then when the group comes in, we know, as counselors, right, that we’re going to first create group norms, we are going to say that we’re going to say, Don’t Yuck, my Yum, or hey, how do we show up and listen or what is respectful look like? How do we define what we want this group to be? Right? And yet, as adults, we don’t do that. And we just have all these assumptions and expectations. And so then we end up becoming disappointed or frustrated.

Caroline 12:21
And so one of the things I look for when I look for healthy teams and healthy hear groups or colleagues is do they already have their norms? And what are they? And as much as sometimes it feels a little silly to be like, I want to create norms, or I want to get a poster board and write these down.

Caroline 12:37
It was one of the healthiest work environments I’ve ever been at as we we really created this space of things as simple as just like, how do we write back on emails? Like, are we a k period group? Or do we write out okay, thanks. And our name when we’re responding to a slacker email? And how big of a difference that makes.

Caroline 12:58
This group we went as far as to say, we don’t talk about our bodies at work. I mean, that type of inclusivity, to just say, it’s just not something we’re going to do here. And at first, I remember being like, Oh, that feels really strict. And like, am I going to want to do that. And all of a sudden, it just became this sense of ease, where we talked about each other’s confidence, we talked about each other’s growth, we were able to get feedback in a different way. But we started taking out things that we were just like, if we don’t want our girls, or we don’t want the people we’re working with to be perpetuating this, then we cannot perpetuate that.

Lauren Tingle 13:29
Totally. And I think counselors don’t give themselves enough credit that they’re doing this work already with students, and then they forget to do it with their own team of people. So when you have a department meeting, to have the structure and the outlines of the norms, like we’re not going to be on our phones during this meeting, because we want to look at each other in the eyes, we want to get through our meeting, because we all don’t want to sit here all day.

Lauren Tingle 13:51
But we have to say that every time. I know like, I am a big culprit of that too, like I’m gonna pick up my phone, and he’s texting me. But to be able to make sure that we communicate clearly and get through this meeting, we’re not going to do that. But you would do the same thing with a student. If you were talking one on one with a student, you wouldn’t be picking up your phone and checking your text messages.

Caroline 14:08
And it makes me think a lot about self efficacy, which is just the idea of the belief and sell. Okay, so one thing that’s really cool about self efficacy is if you can do it in one domain, it’s actually transferable to another domain.

Caroline 14:19
As big as let’s say, I’m not good cook. I’m not actually I’m terrible. But I’m like, I decided I want to make a souffle, and I practiced, and I practiced, and I finally make the souffle, and I’m like how Yes, look at my delicious if I did it, right. And then let’s say I go on vacation and decide I want to take a surf class and I’ve never surfed and not a great surfer, my brain because of that souffle, because I did it well, somewhere else. I actually will will be better at surfing.

Caroline 14:46
And I think that a lot about our schools and our counselors as I’m like you would have such incredible skill sets and accountability and communication and conflict resolution in listening, active listening and sitting with people in their pain and grade. And it’s like, how do we take what we already are doing every single day with our students, and give that same expectation to the teams that we work with?

Lauren Tingle 15:08
Totally. it’s so good to remember, because like you said, they have those skills. Now we just need to transfer it to enjoy our workplace.

Caroline 15:15
But you know, it is the inner critic, right? Because Lauren, and if we’re sitting in a grip, and I pick up my phone, and I start texting, well, your first reaction is like, oh, that’s annoying girl, I’m stop texting, I’m trying to give you, you know, the agenda of the meeting. And then the next thing we think, is, Oh, don’t be that person, don’t want to put down their phone. Or if I am gonna be that person, they’re gonna think on mean, or they’re annoying, or they’re gonna think I’m not chill or cool.

Lauren Tingle 15:42
We can go through like, the whole rabbit trail of like, why we didn’t even speak up or say anything about it.

Caroline 15:48
Exactly. And so if you create those norms at the beginning, and just, every time say, who’s gonna read them out loud this meeting, you don’t do cell phones, well, then now you have this anchor place where every single person in the group, not just the leader, but every single person in the group should hold that person who picked up their phone accountable.

Lauren Tingle 16:05
Yes. And you know that that works with students like you see it, you know, it feels silly every time like, we’re gonna go through these again this week. But you know, but it works. It’s like we know in group counseling settings at that work, so.

Lauren Tingle 16:17
Okay, you touched a little bit on, you know, how we are handling things with students like grief and trauma. And those are like really heavy things. I would say some of my hardest days as a high school counselor, were those really tough emotional days, like, with a student death, and that’s what you’re doing all day.

Lauren Tingle 16:34
So talk about, like that territory that comes with the heavy emotions and the burdens of being a high school counselor, just like burying other people stuff every day. How do high school counselors have like self compassion for that? Like, how do we take care of ourselves, and maybe talk about how it’s related to burnout? Maybe you’re gonna tell me like, that’s not the stuff that leads to burnout. And it’s more cultural stuff in the workplace, but like, how do we care for ourselves? And keep going when it’s really hard?

Caroline 17:01
Yeah, one of the my mantras and I start almost all my workshops,. I tell us to all my clients, is experiences are different, but emotions are the same. And so often, we sit in a place where we’re like, Oh, we didn’t even have the death of a parent. But we’re going to be the ones sitting in this pain and grief and loss trauma, right? And here’s the thing, we still feel that pain and grief and drama like that. And it’s still so heavy.

Caroline 17:27
And so first and foremost, it’s allowing yourself to feel it. It’s not saying, oh, I need to be above this, or I need to always have this perfect separation, or I need to be able, because this is my job, I know exactly where to put it on what shelf and when I go home, I can turn it off and turn it back on. No, we’re humans, we are complex. And when those emotions come up, they come up.

Caroline 17:48
And so sometimes, and you know this, right? Like, sometimes you’re sitting with a student who’s going through something really hard, and you can just be right there with them. And somehow they walk out of your office and you’re like, and you can just keep going. And sometimes they won’t go to your office, you just need to wait and you wait. Or you need to throw something, am I it’s hard. And so I think first and foremost, always just allow yourself to feel your feelings.

Caroline 18:10
One of the things that we do that it causes really unnecessary suffering is the shame that we feel about what we should be feeling or how should be. And I think especially as professionals, there are so many days where I might pay I have back to back clients and maybe not very person has gone through a horrible divorce or had a dad or something going on. And I’m like, who I should be able to turn that off and turn on for my next client. But that’s just not the truth.

Caroline 18:36
And so then all of a sudden, I get the shame of the should, right? And instead first feel your feelings. That’s what I would always say, and allow yourself the space. Now I also worked on schools and I grew up that not every day you get the space. Not every day, you can have that turnover. And so what is the next thing and I think about Emily and Amelia Nagoski’s book burnout. I don’t know if you’ve read it or not.

Lauren Tingle 19:00
I have not. Oh, okay, let me I got I got added to the show notes. I got to add it to my Goodreads list.

Caroline 19:04
Yes, it is so good. But they talk a lot about burnout, especially in women. And what does that burnout feel like? How do we hold it in our body, and especially as Americans who have these values of efficiency and productivity and go go go, that we’re actually all walking around with compounded burnout, so comp, stress.

Caroline 19:27
So we go to school, and we have all this stress, and then we go home and we have laundry or families or we gotta cook or whatever. And then we don’t actually do what I call capital R rest. We actually do lowercase R rest. We turn on the Netflix or we read a book and we just turn off or numb, or so days I’m like, I just need to numb out like, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do any writing. I want to think about anything else.

Caroline 19:49
And so then we wake up the next day and all that compounded stressful the day before is still right back with us. And so one thing I really ascribe to what Emily and Amelia Nagoski talk about in their book is The Seven Pillars of of endings the stress cycle. Of saying, Okay, we’re in the stress cycle, we open it up the adrenaline, the cortisol, even if it’s not our stress, even if we’re taking on someone else’s, like our students stress, that that adrenaline, that cortisol, that’s all been still released in our bodies.

Lauren Tingle 20:20
Yes, it transfers over to us.

Lauren Tingle 20:23
I know, right? And then it will just sitting there like ugh. And if you don’t stop to think about it, you’re like, why do I feel this way?

Lauren Tingle 20:30
No, it was someone else. But just because of our role, we take that on.

Caroline 20:33
Exactly. You feel in your heart you feel in your shoulders, you throw it in your gut. And so they have these simple ways. And it does feel almost like ridiculous, because they’re like, Oh, really, the laughing out loud is gonna do this.

Caroline 20:44
But what they found in the research is there’s these seven different ways like going for a walk, laughing out loud, having a deep meaningful conversation. We love our DNC bar, these ways that we do capital R rest, and so we’re actually processing and closing the stress circle. And we need to be practicing doing that every single day.

Caroline 21:03
And it’s hard, right? Like, it’s kind of like when I tell clients, like, Do you want a journal? And they’re like, oh, yeah, I’ll journal and you literally know one ever journals. But it’s in how do we start to practice those things so that we know the next morning we wake up, and we’ve had a hard day that we’re doing that capital R rest and making a moment to reconnect with ourselves and our values and kind of our Northstar.

Lauren Tingle 21:22
Do you ever make these like big corporate people stop in the middle of your workshops and like laugh out loud? Because you know, it’s going to relax them, connect them to somebody else? And like, be a silly moment. I think that there’s so much value in that.

Caroline 21:38
Yes, absolutely. So I often say I’m a corporate camp counselor.

Lauren Tingle 21:42
That’s a perfect description of you.

Caroline 21:45
I just feel like, you know, for a long time, I had that same inner critic of just like, I’m supposed to be professional, and I’m supposed to look and act a certain way. And what I realized is no, no, like, I value vulnerability, and I’m very serious about what I do and care deeply about mental health and, and growing leaders. And I’m silly as well, and I’m gonna dance and I’m gonna do voices, and I’m gonna make people get a little uncomfy. And it’s gonna be really fun.

Caroline 22:12
Can I tell you a story about this? Okay, so I’m in Omaha, Nebraska with about 200 people. Most of them are very large men who work in the field. Then for those of you who are listening, I’m about five, three, a little blonde bubbly, just like ahh and they’re like, No, they were just from the very beginning. You could tell.

Lauren Tingle 22:37
They’re like, Who is this girl? Why is she here to talk to us?

Caroline 22:41
So I pull up my first slide. And it’s about psychological safety. And this man raised his hand, he has this handlebar mustache, and he’s in a motorcycle cut. But he’s got these big old muscles. And he just looks at me and says, Caroline, I don’t give a damn about your psychobabble bullsh. And I was standing with my slide, there’s like me shaking like, oh.

Lauren Tingle 23:04
So that’s the direction this is gonna go.

Caroline 23:06
Here we go. And I’m only telling you all this because I know that all of you have had that one student who’s like, miss, I don’t care what you say I miss, I don’t want to be in this group. I’m mad, I’m in your office, or whatever it might be right.

Caroline 23:18
And so the next day, by the end of our session, I have them all circle up. And I make all of these men stand in a circle. And we’re going to do a gratitude together. At this point, we’re dancing over to the circle. Some of them are still rolling their eyes at me. And Gary raised his hand and says I want to go first. I was like, oh, no, this is the same guy, same guy. And he comes in the circle. And he looks me up and down. And I’m I’m really I’m nervous. Like he cannot bring me off my game. He made me feel a certain way. Right?

Caroline 23:49
Like, this is what I care about. We actively got a whole group of people to be like, we don’t care. And then he said to me, he said Ms. Caroline. I was at Oh, Miss. Okay, so here has changed. And he said, Ms. Caroline, I just want to say thank you. I don’t think I’ve ever learned more about myself than I have in these two days.

Caroline 24:09
Oh, and I think about that, because I think especially as counselors, when we go into these spaces, it feels cringe. It feels kind of icky. When we’re forcing ideas or trying to hold people accountable, or are pushing ourselves to really feel things and not just go through the motions. Sometimes we can be hard on ourselves, or we can get cringe. But there is that that seed that we’re planting, someone is listening.

Caroline 24:36
And when when I started to feel burnt out when I start to feel that just exhaustion or that frustration, I try to go back to the idea of seeds because we don’t always get to see the blossoms, right? Our kids go. They go to the next grade. They go to the next school they move on and we don’t always get to see the blossoms.

Caroline 24:53
But when we do have this moment, it’s like Gary telling me that is such a blossom. And I know each one of your counselors who listen to those have one of those moments where you’re just like, yes. How do we come back to that? Because that recenters us and that capital R rest, and that sense of value of our why not just the one of our job, right?

Caroline 25:12
We get strung down on the what? I have these meetings, I have these emails, I have this thing I have to do this on Wednesday, I gotta go here on Friday. But what’s the why of our job? And how do we make a point every day to try to come back to that?

Lauren Tingle 25:24
Yeah, and I don’t think that we give enough value to calling that rest with a capital R like that does like rest our souls that, you know, like this is work that we’ve been called to that we feel like is good and meaningful and valuable work. But when we don’t stop and reflect on something, maybe something that was hard that turned good, or that student who literally said I’m not talking to you, or like they sent me down here, and I have nothing to say. And then you think of the breakthroughs that you had, or the self reflection that now they’re able to vocalize like that’s huge.

Caroline 25:59
And positive psychology, Martin Seligman is writes a book called Flourish. And it’s a great book. And it’s really about how do we retrain our brain because we have a negative propensity and we look for risk first, it makes sense. We’re running from a saber toothed Tiger, right? Like, everything is a problem. We had to say everything’s on fire all the time.

Caroline 26:18
But doesn’t actually make sense in our society and more. I mean, that would be a whole nother podcast, because yes, everything is on fire. However, most days, we’re not actually running from a saber toothed Tiger. It’s not actually the energy that we need is to go to that problem. And so how do we actively tell ourselves stories of success? Tell ourselves stories of joy, tell ourselves stories of of us doing the right thing, right?

Caroline 26:44
People often ask, okay do you get really nervous before you do public speaking? And oh, my actually, I really don’t anymore. And they’re like, why not? And I, I said, I actually see myself I can’t, I can see myself at the end of the talk, saying thank you. Eyes and seeing people laugh. And people come up to me and giving out hugs, and I can see it so clearly.

Caroline 27:05
And so I’ve now tell myself the story of not where I’m going to trip over my words, not where I’m going to look like a fool, not where like, you know, I get too nervous and I say the wrong thing. But I tell myself a story of success. And often, in our in our everyday life, we tell ourselves the stories of the risk or the problems.

Lauren Tingle 27:32
That kind of carries into kind of the last thing I want to touch on is imposter syndrome. So I would say definitely new high school counselors are feeling this. Like they’re maybe coming from just doing an internship or maybe they’re coming from elementary middle, and they’re just now moving into high school and everything feels unknown and high stakes and very scary. Like, am I in the right place. I can’t believe someone hired me for this job.

Lauren Tingle 28:39
But also like veterans who have been here for a long time, like you’re always asking questions, every scenario feels gray, like am I doing the right thing? So if the solution to impostor syndrome, going through that story in our head over and over and visualizing us finding success, like what strategies do we need to be using to combat that imposter syndrome?

Caroline 29:00
Yeah, you know, Dr. Kristin Neff, who is the leading researcher on self compassion, she has three tenets of really combating mass and the very first one is be kind to yourself, which feels so like silly and easy and also maybe I rolly like Okay mom, like be kind of myself. But I think it is like the most important tenant and it’s one that we’re not very self aware of.

Caroline 29:24
So let’s let’s just say this like I’m walking down the street about that but I see all these people are wave and then I trip and I fall on my face okay. Well, the first thing I think is oh my god, you blundering fool. You’re such an idiot. You’re such a dumb dumb they all saw you pop up. Oh, oh, they’re all looking okay, now I just gotta walk away or do I try to make a joke? Oh, that joke didn’t land Okay, now I’m even more of a fool right like you’re just like last spiraling Yeah, right.

Caroline 29:51
Or could we say to ourselves if we were going to be kind to ourselves like i i trip and I fall and I jump up and I’m just like, that’s showbiz baby. You’re right, like, that’s just here, I like I’ve been, I am so complicated. And so just like going to fail, like I’m going to fail.

Lauren Tingle 30:10
I think of how much permission that would then give me even as the person walking by on the sidewalk to be like, you know, what would I have done in that situation? You know, and it gives me some confidence too that like, hey, we can, that’s okay.

Caroline 30:23
Exactly. And and when I think about being kind to yourself, I often try to think about your best friend, right? So what would you say to your best friend if she just moved from middle school to high school counseling, and was like, I don’t know what I’m doing? Well, your best friend one would probably give you a hug, or some type of single touch, a high five, they would be there for you, they might buy you in a treat, they might say, let’s go get ice cream. Let’s go have a beer or whatever it might be.

Caroline 30:46
Then then they’re probably gonna say, you are incredible. Like, let me tell you all the reasons why you’re incredible. Let me tell you about all the things that you did on that last middle school you’re out or let me tell you about how well you did in grad school. Or let me tell you about how many people that you’ve touched and affected and, and made these ripples.

Caroline 31:03
And then you walk out of that conversation with your best friend do like bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, and I got I can do this, right. And yet, we can actually do that for ourselves. That’s where that first slide of self compassion comes in is, how do we remind ourselves to talk the way our best friend would share with us? Because we wouldn’t have any friends. If, if you fell Lauren, and I go you blundering fool.

Lauren Tingle 31:27
We would not be friends. And I would not take your advice.

Caroline 31:30
And yet, we do it to ourselves every day. And I’m like, Why? Why don’t we do, right. And then the other thing Kristin Neff talks quite a bit about is just recognizing shared humanity, and folding negative self talk in a mindful awareness.

Caroline 31:45
So recognizing shared humanity is really I like to think about it as like dancing in traffic in Austin, Texas. We are Have I 35. It is awful. And I would get off of work. And I would just get so angry, like, The Incredible Hulk would be coming out of me. I’d be like, I can’t do this. I’m so mad. I don’t want to be sitting in traffic, I just want to be home, I want to be on the couch. I’ve had a hard day, why am I here, right. And I could feel myself getting angry. And then somebody might cut in front of me. And now all of a sudden, I’m like, yelling explicit, like, all that, again, that adrenaline and cortisol is getting released.

Caroline 32:20
And one day I was sitting on 35. And I was starting to get behind. I could feel the Hulk trying to peek out. And I was like, not gonna do this. I’m just not going to do this. And I started making really awkward eye contact with the car next to me. And I think did the like Dirty Dancing thumbs up? Like, hey, kind of looked me up and down like, no, like, no lady, I’m not gonna. I am alone in my car. I am alone in my car.

Caroline 32:46
And so then I kind of started doing the disco finger. I’m like, doing you know, the Superman. I’m like trying to do all these moves. And finally they start laughing and they start doing a move back. And in that moment, I started laughing and I realized, wait, I had control to release oxytocin, serotonin, all the good feelings by just making a choice in that moment. And so I moved to the next car I did it again. Now that cart flipped me off. And we’re like, No, I’m not going to do this with you. I was like, got it.

Caroline 33:14
But even that, though, made me starting to laugh. Right, right. Ah, you’re mad about traffic, I get it. And then finally, I remember in this this specific day, I got to an 18 Wheeler and I did the hawk sign, of course, we’re in bumper to bumper traffic in downtown Austin. And the trucker looked at me and just nodded and laid on the horn and I was screaming, and he was screaming again, it was like.

Lauren Tingle 33:37
When was the last time an adult did that to him? You know, like the five year old in the car driving by did it but he’s like, Oh, now we’re adult sharing this experience. And this is funny.

Caroline 33:46
Exactly. And so I was recognizing our shared humanity. We’re all in traffic, we’re all anchored. We’re all frustrated, right? We all just want to be home. And maybe I get to go home and sit on my couch. But maybe someone not traffic is going to their second job. Maybe someone’s going home to take care of a sick parent. Maybe someone is having to figure out what they’re going to put on the table at night for dinner, and the way that I don’t even have to.

Lauren Tingle 34:09
But in this moment, like we get to choose happiness or joy or you know, whatever that is that you want to choose for yourself.

Caroline 34:17
And you get to recognize that we’re all in this together. Often the inner critic or that imposter starts to make us feel like we’re alone on the island are the only one who feels this way. We’re the only one who’s gonna look like a fool.

Lauren Tingle 34:29
We’re the only one who’s ever done this job for the first time know exactly everyone has done this for the first time at some point.

Caroline 34:36
So all the minor critic starts to come up on our clients who have that I really remind them Hey, think about the zoning traffic. And then that last one is folding negative talk in a mindful awareness. And I think about Sesame Street. You know, were the words go along on the screen like a sing along Yeah, yes. And then the words just disappear right. And then the next lyrics come up.

Caroline 34:57
Well often we have the fois. So let’s say it comes up, I think, oh my gosh, you look like a fool. Well, I can either go down what I call my negative death spiral of you like a fool, you’re an idiot, you shouldn’t be in the job, everyone knows you shouldn’t be in a job, why are you even here, you are worthless, and I get to this place of you are worthless, you are not worthy, right?

Caroline 35:19
Or like the Sesame Street lyrics, we can say, hey, you like a fool, or you’re an idiot, or you whatever, whatever that negative talk is. And then I can just hold it for a second and say, Do I want to make meaning out of this? No. And it’s mental gymnastics, it takes a lot of work. But then I can just let it go, flying off the screen, like those songs and say, I don’t actually have to make meaning out of this. That was a cruel thought a best friend would not say that to me. What would a best friend say?

Caroline 35:46
And so it’s taking pause. And it’s taking an audit of how you’re talking to yourself. So that first one was be kind to yourself, the second one was recognized, shared humanity or dancing in traffic. And then that last one is holding negative talk, and mindful awareness, or really just being on Sesame Street.

Lauren Tingle 36:03
Those are perfect examples to remember each of those two. And I’m sure that all of that takes practice, like you don’t overcome that impostor syndrome overnight. You don’t show up and work in this healthy work environment without that shared vulnerability and shared humanity with the other adults that you’re working with, like all of this takes practice and you to go first like that. I mean, that’s vulnerability, is you going first and saying, This is hard. I feel however you feel being honest about that. And I think that can go so far.

Caroline 36:36
And is life happening at you? Are you creating your own life? And what I mean by that is, often I see this in a lot of companies, I’ve seen this at schools, where it’s like, well, the principles X way, or the culture is x way. And so I just have to sit there and kind of take it.

Caroline 36:51
I’m like, you actually can go out and say, I’m going to have a conversation with the principal about how I’m what I’m noticing and how I feel. Or I’m gonna go talk to that colleague and say, Hey, I don’t think your boundaries are great. Now, is that that cringy icky, scary conversation, right?

Lauren Tingle 37:05
Can it be awkward? Probably,

Caroline 37:06
It will be Yeah, why don’t we just actually say this, it’s gonna be awkward. But here I go. Because I actually want to say I have power, I have the ability to make shifts and changes. And then I think the last piece of burnout that I always want to speak to is that you are never truly stuck.

Caroline 37:26
I know that it can feel that way. And I know that it can feel sometimes like, well, what if I have had like, I’m thinking about a listener right now being like, well, I have had this conversation with the principal. And I have had to make a diff tried to make a difference. And I’m have had to try to change the culture I’ve tried. And nothing has shifted.

Caroline 37:42
What point then do you have to really take the audit of, is this the right place for me? Is there another school that might be more open to this? Is there a role that I could be more empowered that I could use my voice that I could give my gifts to the world and not feel silenced by it?

Lauren Tingle 38:00
Yeah, I think that’s so important, because that’s the reality. There are some places where like, the other people aren’t going to get better. And you’ve done all the work that you can do to change your immediate culture. And you know, some other people, you can’t change, you can change you.

Lauren Tingle 38:14
But there, there might be a time where it’s time to get out to go either do something else if you are feeling like you have nothing else to offer or find a different school, because I tell people all the time like it is. There are good schools out there. There are good leaders out there to work for you got to find that one that’s a good fit for you.

Caroline 38:29
Yeah. And I think most my, my social worker and counselor friends, they’re such fixit firefighters, like they see the fire and they’re like, I’m gonna go ahead and fix this, I’m gonna make it right. And it is one of the noblest and most wonderful qualities and people when they can say I really want to make this place better.

Caroline 38:47
And then also, how do you constantly put your own oxygen mask on first to say, Is this my job right now to make this better? Have I already done all the things in my, in my tool belt, and I am now just exhausting myself? And when do I know when to walk away or when to say, this is not my job to fix, you know, this is my, this is my realm. And this is what I can give and do. But it is not my job to constantly be running at every fire and making it right, because I’ve got to take care of me so that I can take care of those kiddos.

Lauren Tingle 39:19
Totally. And that takes a lot of self awareness and reflection too. So it’s a it’s a process to be aware of yourself and your where you are in that space in your workplace. And then it also takes self awareness and confidence and humility to like, take the next step if you need to go do something else.

Lauren Tingle 39:36
So I give props to people doing both things, trying to fix the things you know that they can and take the steps of empowerment that they need to have those conversations with people and then also like it can be big and scary to leave that too.

Caroline 39:50
That’s right. I talk a lot about patterns. So recognizing patterns. And so if you’re trying to be a disrupter, if you’re trying to change a culture or change a team dynamic that first time something happens, we always say, Oh, wow, that just to be the first time it happens. The second time something happens. It’s like, okay, I’m noticing something. The third time it happens, there’s a pattern at that point. That’s when there needs to be some type of, let’s get in there. Let’s talk about this. Let’s problem solve, let’s this.

Caroline 40:17
And then if it happened before time, fifth time, the sixth time that it might be that the pattern is not going to change. And so how do we feel okay with that? Can we feel okay with that? Or if we’re not going to be okay with that, it may not be that we’re the fixit firefighter in this moment, we may not be able to change that pattern.

Lauren Tingle 40:32
Exactly. Caroline, this was an awesome conversation. Is there anything we didn’t talk about that you feel like high school counselors need to hear kind of from your world and things that you’ve seen in different work cultures and stuff?

Caroline 40:45
Yeah, I think there’s something really just one beautiful about doing high school counseling and counseling in general, mental health is so necessary and talking about it, talking about it, talking about it.

Caroline 40:57
Because as we go into right, as those students move from elementary to middle, from middle to high, from high and maybe the working world, or maybe they’re going to college, that they are going to help, how did they have that skill set to then do the things that we’re talking about? And so you are creating those ripples, and really helping them learn that.

Caroline 41:17
I think about this a lot for myself, when I was working in that nonprofit, and I was going into schools every day, and I’m teaching this curriculum on self compassion on the inner critic, on growth mindset on these leadership skills, how much it was just sitting with me. And it was making me realize, okay, if I really want to teach someone how to do this, I have to do it for myself.

Caroline 41:38
And I think that’s the thing I’d want to want these counselors to hear the most is like, you already are doing it for hundreds of students. And for years. It’s a how do you keep doing it for yourself? How do you say, Wait, everything that my student deserves I deserve as well?

Lauren Tingle 41:55
Totally. What a great little pep talk to end on they’re gonna leave this listening to this feeling so empowered, like, I can do this. I can keep going. Caroline just motivated me too. Well, Caroline, where can people connect with you? I’ll link it all in the show notes. But like, if they want to, like learn more about you, or, I mean, do you ever go to schools or do like zoom workshops or anything you tell them about it.

Caroline 42:19
I will come in and do your teacher work days, I’ve come into schools all over Texas, will do strengths, or just to like some of that team bonding some of the places. I call them focus circles. But really, they’re just venting, you know, it’s that place to say, I need to talk about this. And now I need to also take action items. It’s like how we really listen, how do we create that psychological safety together?

Caroline 42:40
So you can find me on LinkedIn, you can always just DM me and then my website is carolinecrawfordconsulting.com. And there’s a contact sheet and I try to write back every day.

Lauren Tingle 42:50
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for being here. I know everyone’s gonna love this conversation.

Caroline 42:54
Thank you, Lauren.

Lauren Tingle 42:55
I loved this conversation with Caroline about self compassion and beating impostor syndrome, and facilitating a really positive work culture, and then realizing when you need to get out if it’s not going to change. She had so many nuggets in here that I am going to take away scribbled down and share with you all over and over again, because I think this is an episode that you’re going to listen to more than once.

Lauren Tingle 43:21
So thank you, Caroline, for being here. I’ve said it once. I’ll say it again. She had so much good stuff to offer and I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode. I’ll see you next week.