Solution-Focused School Counseling with Dr. Russell A. Sabella [Episode 112]

Lauren 0:00
First of all, let me start by saying Happy National School Counseling Week. I hope you’re celebrating big. If you want some National School Counseling Week inspired content, head back to an episode I did a few weeks back in preparation for this week, episode 110, or listen to last year’s episode 59 about five forgotten ways to promote your school counseling program.

Lauren 0:20
Since we’re celebrating school counseling, I thought what better way to do this than with the goat of school counseling? I’m talking about Dr. Russell Sabella, the greatest of all time. Does it get better than this?! I finally had the privilege of hearing Dr. Sabella speak at ASCA last summer in Atlanta after following his professional career for a while. I’ve known him to be a leading voice and an advocate in the school counseling community and maybe you are familiar with him around that topic as well. He’s someone who always has something wise and knowledgeable to say that I truly look up to.

Lauren 0:50
Let me introduce you to him if you don’t know him already, and then I’ll let you in our interview. Dr. Russell Sabella is currently a professor in the school counseling program in the College of Education at Florida Gulf Coast University, and President of Sabella and Associates. Dr. Sabella is the author of articles published in journals, magazines, and newsletters. He’s the co author of four books. He is also the author of three books, including Solution Focused School Counseling: The Missing Manual, School Counselor.com: A Friendly and Practical Guide to the World Wide Web, A Practical Guide to Keeping Kids out of High Tech Trouble, and he’s well known for his technology boot camp for counselor workshops conducted throughout the country.

Lauren 1:31
Dr. Sabella is past president of the American School Counselor Association from 2003 to 2004. And the Florida School Counselor Association from 2013 to 2014. He’s trained and consulted 1000s of school counselors, educators, parents and organizational leaders throughout the country. He has quite the resume. You heard me mentioned that he authored a book on solution focused school counseling. So that’s what we’re talking about today.

Lauren 1:56
Counseling theories are something that we often just pack away after grad school and don’t think to revisit throughout our time as school counselors. But Dr. Sabella insists that we should be bringing them back into our practice that using solution focused counseling may even help us prevent burnout, because we’ll be serving our students with efficiency and effectiveness. So let’s get right into today’s guest episode.

Lauren 2:25
You got into this profession to make a difference in your students lives, but you’re spread thin by all the things that keep getting added to your to do list. I can’t create more hours in the day, but I can invite you into my counselor clique where you’ll finally catch your breath. Come with me as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that will help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your students. I’m Lauren Tingle, your high school counseling hype girl, here to help you energize your school counseling program and remind you of how much you love your job.

Lauren 2:58
Welcome to the podcast Dr. Sabella, I’m so glad that you’re here to talk about solution focused school counseling.

Dr. Sabella 3:04
It’s my pleasure, Lauren, it’s one of my favorite topics of all time.

Lauren 3:07
Yeah, so I feel like we have the GOAT right here, the greatest of all time to talk about it, thought we’d bring in the big guns. And I’ve already told you all a little bit about who Dr. Sabella is. So we’re gonna dive right in. And I would love for you just to give us an overview of solution focused school counseling and how it’s different from other approaches. Like, it might have been a while since some of our listeners have been in grad school and really heard about some of those techniques. So refresh our memories on that.

Dr. Sabella 3:37
Okay, sounds good. You know, that’s a good lead into one of the myths, you know, there are several myths about solution focused school counseling. And I discovered this a while back ago, one of them is that people who think they’re solution focused, because at the end of their meeting with a student or a parent or stakeholder, they come up with solutions. And that’s really not it at all. I discovered this years ago, people were coming to my workshops and time and again, they’re saying, oh, I’m already solution focused. And you know, hopefully I’ll learn some things.

Dr. Sabella 4:08
Then after the workshop, like, oh, my gosh, I learned so much, I can’t wait. And I’m scratching my head thinking, weren’t you the one who said you’re already solution focused. And what I discovered was, again, that they’re really using a problem centered approach coming up with goals and solutions. But these are two very different pathways. And the solution focused approach is kind of novel. It’s really counterintuitive, because for many, many years, maybe all of our lives, we’ve been practicing the problem centered approach.

Dr. Sabella 4:36
First, identify the problem and you got to find out which problem you’re really working on, then you got to understand all the intricacies, what caused it, what keeps it going, you know, all that stuff and then and only then can we move on to solutions. And as you know, it’s an effective approach. It works, but it comes with some unpleasant side effects. You know, you’re tired at the end of the day because you just focused all day on people’s problems and issues and deficits and barriers. And it takes a long time. And it’s not fun.

Dr. Sabella 5:05
So the solution focused approach says, we’re going to actually flip this around, instead of trying to explain the 85% that’s going wrong and trying to reduce that and replace it, we’re going to start with the 15% that’s going right. Your strengths, your opportunities, your resources, your support systems, and we’re going to build on that. We’re going to get it to 25%, and 30% and then things start to tip. And before you know it, this is why it’s a brief model, because things start to accelerate. It’s also fun, it’s very empowering. And it helps people that we work with, kids and others really take more responsibility for their own choices.

Lauren 5:42
I love what you said about it being empowering, because especially as we’re working with high school aged kids, we’re thinking about what is their next step, we want them to be responsible adults who can make their own decisions, who we’re confident as we launch them out. And I know their parents feel the same way, like of all people that we’re working with, they’re about to go out and have some more independence. So if we can equip them and empower them with some decision making and some healthy models for what they can do next, like we’re gonna feel good about the work that we’re doing too.

Dr. Sabella 6:14
Yeah, and you know, one of the interesting things, I love working with some of the older students, really a lot, because for them, they’ve been tackling problems for a little bit longer than maybe the elementary or middle school kids. And I gotta tell you, some of them are just tired of talking about it, they’ve explained it, sometimes they’ve seen more than one counselor. And so then I come in, and I say, you know, you’ve been struggling, these are some things you’ve been dealing with for a long time.

Dr. Sabella 6:40
And you know, we could spend more time trying to understand where you’re coming from, and, and that’s okay, we can talk about that and we can understand it, but but at the same time, I’m really wondering how it is you’ve been managing and coping, you’re still in school, you’re still interested in your grades, and in your career. And so starting from that angle, it’s a bit refreshing for them. They look at you kind of weird, like, really, this is what we’re doing? But they get used to it really quickly, and they usually enjoy it very much.

Lauren 7:06
Well, I was gonna say maybe even just that reflecting back is a breath of fresh air like, Okay, someone is actually hearing me say, Yeah, I’ve tried this, and it hasn’t worked, or I’ve said this a million times, and no one seems to have heard me in the way that maybe you’re hearing me now.

Dr. Sabella 7:20
Exactly. You know, there’s another myth is that solution focus, people are not interested in problems. And that’s not true by the way, there’s a lot of power in talking about problems. And so whether it’s a kid or a parent, or even a teacher, a stakeholder, they’re going to talk about their problems, there’s no way around it. Even when I start out with the solution focus question, you know, as a result of us working together, what is it that you want to be able to do better? Sometimes they don’t even hear that, because they’re so focused on explaining their problems and issues.

Dr. Sabella 7:51
But the difference is how did you listened to those? From a solution focused perspective, we’re definitely making sure they’re safe. If there’s any indication of foreseeable harm to self or others, you know, we want to make sure they’re safe. We also want them to vent and you do feel better when you do that. We want them to understand that we’re empathetic and understanding and caring and trusting. But here’s where I think it really starts to move in a different direction.

Dr. Sabella 8:16
As I’m listening to those problems and issues. I’m listening for strengths and resources and opportunities. How have you been maintaining and coping and navigating? How have you been overcoming? And at the same time to, you know, two sides of the same coin problems and solutions. So as you’re telling me what you don’t want in your life, I’m also being able to get closer to what it is you do want instead.

Lauren 8:40
And that sounds like it could make some real actual progress like forward, they have been thinking of the problems the whole time, and not being able to see some of those positive solution focused things that you’re able to pick out just from hearing them vent. Like they think they’re doing the same thing that they’ve always done. And now they are hearing it from a different perspective, which is exactly what counseling is, you need your eyes open to the things that you’re blinded to.

Dr. Sabella 9:04
Yeah, absolutely.

Lauren 9:05
So practically speaking, counselor hears this and they go, Okay, well, I’ve never really like put this into practice before. What are some of those techniques where they can start to implement this with students?

Dr. Sabella 9:17
Sure. And you know, that’s a great question. One of the things I love about the approach is that it’s one of the most practical, you know, my motto for my entire career is that whatever I learn and practice and promote and develop, has to fulfill the three E’s. It’s got to make you more effective, more efficient, and your job more enjoyable.

Lauren 9:34
Amen.

Dr. Sabella 9:35
Yeah, this really fits the bill. But here’s the caveat. The caveat is because it’s counterintuitive, it takes a lot of practice, because you’re trying to get out of your own way.

Lauren 9:45
And probably your old habits, like if you’re not used to doing this, you really have to think about how you’re asking questions and how you’re listening.

Dr. Sabella 9:51
You really doing you got to come up with those solution focused questions. You got to tune your ears to listen for those exceptions and maybe hypotheticals and then the techniques are easy. One of the ones that I like to start with is just solution focus scaling. And so explaining the scale one to ten. Ten is that your problems have been resolved, things are at their very best and you’re happy.

Dr. Sabella 10:12
And one, of course, is that things are at their worst, terrible, miserable five, somewhere in the middle, and you explain that scale, then solicit a general number. So tell me, what number would you give yourself that tells me how you’re doing. And maybe how you’re doing in school, I’d like to keep that part a little general. So we don’t get too bogged down.

Dr. Sabella 10:29
And then if they give you a common number, let’s say three, so here’s, here’s where the paths start to differentiate. The problem center person might say, oh, things are not going so good, you know, let’s talk about how it is that you’re only at a three. In this case, what we want to do is be able to recognize and say, Ah, okay, so even given all that’s happening, you know, you’re already at a three and so 30% of the time you’re able to, you know, get get it done. And so let’s talk about that first.

Dr. Sabella 10:59
So instead of being at a one or two, how is it that you’re already at a three, and they’ve really started to inventory, all of their things. And I think that’s all about resilience. The other thing that problem centered counselors like to do, or just in general, people in general, you know, they don’t like seeing people in discomfort. Also, they don’t have a lot of time. And so they want to jump forward, what can we do to get you to a four? You kind of start sounding like a car salesman, what do I got to do to get you to a four? And I’m afraid that we rob kids of their resilience when we do that. Let’s first start inventory and what they’re already doing right. And then, after a while of that, start looking at what will you be doing even better when you’re at a four?

Lauren 11:39
And because it’s valid, that they’re at a three like they are allowed to be at a three.

Dr. Sabella 11:43
Yeah, they are. And you know, the number doesn’t even matter. Some kids three is another kid six.

Lauren 11:48
Right.

Dr. Sabella 11:49
Oh, the number doesn’t matter. It’s just a good baseline. It’s a good starting place, tracking, you know, that kind of stuff. And the techniques are not that complicated. In fact, most people, most counselors, it’s nothing new, you know, it’d be very person centered, reflecting feelings and summarizing, asking good solution focused questions, doing some cheerleading and feedback. And then really detailing the behaviors and mindsets that they’re able to offer as part of their strengths and resources, both in the past in the form of exceptions during your better days. And in the future, you know, your hypothetical, as you can imagine a better a better world without this problem.

Dr. Sabella 12:24
And a lot of times we’re flipping the script, because what we’re saying is things like, you know, here’s one that people can resonate with me say, I’m too tired to go to the gym. And a lot of times, you know, that’s true. But if we flipped the script, we could also say that it’s not that you’re not going to gym, because you’re tired, you’re tired because you haven’t been working out. If you get two weeks of that going, you’ll get more energy.

Dr. Sabella 12:47
So for example, you know, dealing with depression, so I don’t feel like socializing, though, yeah, okay. But because you’re feeling down and depressed, you’re not socializing. But it could also be the other way around, that you’re feeling down because you’re not socializing. And so in this model, everything is correlational. We’re doing a lot of flipping the script, what we’re saying is, you have to act as if, this is an old Adlerian kind of a principle that’s built into the solution focused model. What would you be doing if you were more on track? And then we help them to figure out how that works?

Lauren 13:23
Do you ever feel like if you run into a student who, or client or whatever, who just insist on like that negative, like they won’t take your bait almost. Like you’re trying to empower them, you’re trying to get them to see the other side, but they are so stuck in their ways. Is that exhausting for you, as a counselor? Like how do you combat that?

Dr. Sabella 13:43
You know, this is the model is not a panacea, you know, it’s not 100%. Some kids just are gonna stick to their guns. But you know, even as you just said that my solution focused ears were burning, you know, as I’m picturing the student who’s just, ya know, they’re gonna be negative, and they’re gonna concentrate on the barriers and the adversity. To me, that’s a strength, you know, when you come up with an idea, you really are dedicated to it.

Lauren 14:09
I love that.

Dr. Sabella 14:09
I mean, wow. I mean, you would make a good attorney, a defense. So there are some skills and mindsets and behaviors that come with that, “resistance” that we could apply to things that they would be doing when it is that things are better,

Lauren 14:24
And then they can’t deny that they’re like, Oh, you are right.

Dr. Sabella 14:28
Yeah. So you know, when you really dedicate your something, it’s not you know, here I am trying to say A and you keep saying B. That’s dedication.

Lauren 14:37
So Right.

Lauren 14:38
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Lauren 15:42
Well, what about when you’re using this technique with high school students specifically? Where do you see there being benefits to incorporating this into your practice?

Dr. Sabella 15:52
Yeah, another great question. You know, one of the things that really prompted me to write this book, Solution Focused School Counseling was, there was really no book that I knew of that covered all how this approach works across a comprehensive school counseling program.

Dr. Sabella 16:08
So, you know, I always tell people go beyond, this is a great approach for doing individual counseling, obviously. But think small group counseling, think pure helping, think solution focused advising, you know, looking at everything from interest, to values, to skills and knowledge, to fit.

Dr. Sabella 16:27
Think of parent conferences, you know, a lot of times these parent conferences, or the meetings where parents are involved, can get pretty nasty and pretty negative and pretty long. And I write about that in the book, how it is that we could use this approach in all of those different aspects and more. If you’re a site supervisor for an intern, how do you do solution focused supervision? So this approach is very applicable, very easy. It’s a change model, it’s empowering people to do better in all kinds of situations.

Lauren 17:00
It really does sound like it spans not just the counselor working with the student, but collaboration with all different stakeholders. When you say that about parents, I’m like, yeah, sometimes you really have to rein those parents in. And you can get in a heated meeting, where even just as a counselor, you’re the peacemaker in the meeting.

Lauren 17:18
Like you’re there to either take notes or you’re usually there to offer solutions. And maybe it is a conflict between parent and teacher, student and teacher, administrator, I’ve been in so many of those meetings where I’m like, okay, I need to say something. But what do I say, and so to have this framework, in the back of my mind would be really helpful.

Dr. Sabella 17:36
Absolutely. And that’s another symptom, I think of a problem centered model, we get stuck. And so this is a great model to get unstuck in some of those sticky situations. But, you know, with parents and teachers, one of the things that I learned in the early days, is that they have to tell their story, they have to feel understood. And so we may have meetings where there are teachers and parents talking about, you know, students how they’re misbehaving or not doing well academically, and, and sometimes even compete, and they want to, you know, let you think he’s doing bad in your class, let me tell you about what he’s doing in my class. And you got to let them do that.

Dr. Sabella 18:08
You know, I’ve tried to maybe refocus and shift but it doesn’t work. So you got to let them vent and then at some point, you got to pivot. So once it is that they’ve been heard, and once it is that we’ve massaged the problem enough, then we can pivot. And you know, I usually compliment Oh, my gosh, you guys have been working hard. You’ve been tolerating, you’ve had to patience, and you really want this. And so here’s my question to you, how will your life be better when this kid is more on track?

Lauren 18:36
And then they pause and they take a breath and they’re like ah, it will be so much better

Dr. Sabella 18:41
Yeah, we shift into their vested interest, which then translates into better student performance.

Lauren 18:46
Yeah, and I think so many of the times, like we’re trying to say, and it’s falling on deaf ears, like we’re on the same team, like, I want to see your students succeed just as much as you want your student to succeed. You want them to come home and tell you about their day and it’s a good day. Like, we all want the best for the student, but sometimes they don’t believe that unless they’re hearing the right things from the people at the school.

Dr. Sabella 19:09
Yeah. And a lot of times and I hear this a lot, parents are not engaged, and they’re not, you know, it’s hard to get a hold of them. And I think, well, you know, yeah, if you’re calling every time there’s a problem or an issue, I probably don’t feel like talking to you either.

Dr. Sabella 19:23
So we’re here’s what happens if you start using this approach, I think it’s a much better way to help partner and help them become allies. You know, you’re so you’re calling more and reporting more on when things go better. And in fact, in the book I write about, you know, making this model more systemic, and by putting out bolos. So I go to a teacher and I go to a parent and I say, you know, you guys have been really doing an amazing job. And I don’t know if there’s anything I can do that you haven’t done already, but if we work together, and you know, be on the lookout, that’s the bolo.

Dr. Sabella 19:56
So, next time I see I’m going to ask you, you know, what is it that you’ve noticed this even just a little bit better? That puts them in that mode. So guess what they’re looking for it now and if they’re looking for it, they’re more apt to find it. And they know that now we’re really collaborating, we’re collaborating in ways that we look for, find and promote better mindsets and behaviors.

Lauren 20:18
Yeah, and you’re shifting, like you said to a system where other people in the school are looking for the solutions as well, where even if it’s just a tiny improvement, I think that’s what I’m going to be on the lookout for. I’m going to try to notice a student in my class and then you’re continuing to build that collaboration, and that just relationship with other teachers and adults in the building. That is going to ripple into not just that student, but the way they handle other students or other behavior or problems students in the future, you’re like, attuning them to solving their own problems, too.

Dr. Sabella 20:52
Yeah, you know, one of the basic assumptions of this approach is you get more of what you look for. And this is the problem with problem centered, you start with one problem, and you end up with three or four or five, and because that’s really what you’re focused on, so you get more of what you focus on. And you focus on solutions and exceptions and hypotheticals, and you’re gonna get more of those.

Lauren 21:13
Definitely. Well, can you think of any, like real life examples or case studies that you’ve seen this go really well? Like can you give us an example. And I bet as you’re sharing them, people listening will think of students that they can relate to, or situations that they can relate to, as well.

Dr. Sabella 21:29
Yeah, and I do have a lot of those in the books. So every transcript in my book is from a real demonstration or a case. But we can start with just social emotional, you know, right now, I know, we’re dealing with a lot of kids who are suffered from depression and anxiety, maybe suicidal ideation. And that’s very serious.

Dr. Sabella 21:48
And so, you know, I’m concerned about that and I’m concerned that if we continue, and this is a little bit controversial. But you know, it’s ironic, you know, we’re going to focus on someone who’s depressed, and we’re going to continue talking about depression, you know, what gets you depressed? What are your triggers? And what are all the different aspects of depression, and you know, at the end of the day, they become more expert in, in depression, but we’re no closer to helping the student.

Dr. Sabella 22:18
And so, what I’m hoping for is that, you know, there are more conversations where who a student might be suffering from sadness, or depression, can really talk about their fluctuations. So some days are better than others. And if we start with your better days, maybe they’re not great, maybe you’re at a two instead of a one. But that’s a great starting place. And we can build on that. And we can be detailed and during really come out with some smart goals that really helped them do more of what they’re doing during their veteran days. And so I think that’s really important.

Dr. Sabella 22:51
You know, one of the cases that I have in the book is one of my favorites, I had an elementary kid come in one time, and I could tell he had already seen a bunch of counselors, he knew the language. And, you know, he kind of walked in and looked me up and down, and basically said, are you going to help me with my anger management problems? And you know, because I was solution focused, I knew how it was gonna go, I was gonna let him talk about that. But eventually, I was going to pivot and say, you know, focus more on the management, rather than the anger.

Dr. Sabella 23:23
And so I said, hey, do you think that some days you manage your anger better some days than others? Yeah. Alright, so on the days, when you’re doing a pretty good managing, and it doesn’t have to be mountain moving, you’re smiling more, your posture is better, you walked in your classroom, you sit down, instead of shoving a desk around, you don’t yell anything.

Dr. Sabella 23:41
So here are the things you do during your better days when you’re managing. And let’s do that more. And again, it’s not 100%. But most of the time, the results are incredible. This is a kid of finished homework, he and his mom were doing more together, rather than her trying to avoid him. And he had a better relationship with his teacher at that point. And you know, some people say, is a band aid approach? Now we got some good data. And anecdotally, I can tell you, it’s no worse or if anything, it’s a little even a little bit better than any other model in the long term.

Lauren 24:17
Yeah, and hearing you say those types of questions like hearing how your brain thinks through like, what you’re going to ask next, feels like I’m practicing it too. Like, I’m like, what would I say in that situation? And I think you said this in the beginning, like, the more you practice it, you’re just nurturing that technique and that skill for yourself as a counselor that it will come more naturally. And it’s just you have to change the framework that you’re thinking about when you’re sitting there asking them questions. And you have to be a step ahead of them knowing okay, this is the direction I’m taking this conversation like you’re the counselor, you’re in charge of where this is going, no matter what they put out there next.

Dr. Sabella 24:52
Yeah. And you know, I do have to agree that this model also takes faith. You know how, because that’s the hard part. to wrap your head around, say, how is it that you solve problems without talking a whole lot about problems? It doesn’t make sense. But it just so happens that, you know, as you increase strength and solutions, problems go down. And so you got to have faith that both work. And you know, this one’s a lot more fun and easier and empowering for kids.

Lauren 25:20
You talked about some of the myths in the beginning, are there any other challenges that you see, like counselors running into as they listen to this as they read your book? And they think, okay, I’m gonna go in next week, and we’re gonna try doing this, I’m going to change my framework, and this is a technique I’m going to try and practice. What obstacles or challenges do you foresee them running into? Or, you know, maybe at the beginning, when they start diving in, what are they gonna run into?

Dr. Sabella 25:47
First of all, you know, read up watch videos, and really kind of try to understand the model. But at the same time, one of the other myths is that you’ve got to do the whole model in one sitting. And you don’t, the nice thing about this approach is if you do a little bit, you do it, you get a little bit better results, you do more of it, you get better, how do we say that, you get more better results? Correct. But you know what I’m trying to say.

Dr. Sabella 26:10
So start small, I always say the best way to start is with scaling. And don’t focus on future, don’t worry about goal setting, don’t worry about where they’re headed. Just do a strengths inventory, set up the scale as I described before, and then just spend time exploring progress already made at the number they give you. And if anything, my goodness, that’s going only going to build a lot of rapport. But it turns out that you’re going to end up with two or three goals anyway for the future.

Dr. Sabella 26:39
Do more of what you’ve said was working. Sometimes they even come up with thoughts and ideas that they had forgotten about. On my better days, I was doing that. Have you been doing that? No. Oh, so again, we’re flipping the script. It’s not that you’re not doing that as much because you’re feeling this way. You’re feeling this way because you’re not doing that as much. Let’s go back and start doing some more of that. And it’s such a fun, joyous thing to see them light up when we do that. And they, you know, oftentimes, the majority of time they do get better.

Lauren 27:07
That’s so true. And this sounds like a great technique to use with a student who is constantly coming to you for the same thing, you know, those frequent fliers who want to come vent to you about the same thing over and over. Or this one relationship that seems to constantly be the troubling relationship. But being able to scale that same thing every single time, you’re probably gonna have different conversations every time and be able to tackle a different part of that issue.

Lauren 27:35
Where does it feel exhausting for you as a counselor, because they’re like, oh, we’ve talked about this over and over and over again, and they’re not making any progress. It’s like you’re frustrated with the student. And that’s not how I want to be as a counselor, but you have something to go from. Okay, we’re going to start here, we’re gonna talk about what we tried last time, let’s remember where those times were good before. Like, it just really gives you some progress to monitor and continue modeling with them.

Dr. Sabella 28:00
Absolutely. You got any, I would say a couple of other things, too. And that is, you know, sometimes we assume big problems require big solutions. And that’s not true. The kid I just described with the anger management issue. The thing that made a big difference for him was smiling more.

Lauren 28:14
That’s so cute, like an elementary student.

Dr. Sabella 28:17
During my better days, I’m smiling more. Well, let’s he goes well, no, I’m not gonna do that because I don’t feel like smiling right now. Okay, well about just show your teeth, you know? All right. So you know, and that’s what was happening, he walked into the classroom, and his teacher could tell right away, as soon as he walked in, what kind of a day it was gonna be whether she needed to put her armor on, or whether it was going to be a better day. And just by seeing his teeth, and you know, his shoulders back, that was a small clue. And then it really spiraled up.

Dr. Sabella 28:44
So always even go for the very small solutions, small goals, they do typically build on each other. The other thing I would say, too, is it’s really important to involve other people, you know, and in fact, teachers and caretakers at home, and especially when it is that a kid says, you know, nothing is better this week. And we pumped them for that, we persist, sometimes, you know, they’re not giving themselves enough credit. But it’s always nice to have in my back pocket said, well, that’s not what your teacher said, here’s one thing she noticed that you’re doing a little bit better,

Dr. Sabella 29:04
And how like, special for a student to be like, Wow, somebody noticed that about me. I didn’t even notice that about myself.

Dr. Sabella 29:23
Yeah, that’s usually the reaction. I get like what? You know, she’s watching and she’s noticing and that makes a huge difference. And so collaborating with everybody to get on that same page is really important.

Lauren 29:35
Well, how do you do that when you have a large caseload and you have lots of students who are coming in for this individual counseling, how are you like triaging that?

Dr. Sabella 29:45
Yeah, well, first of all, I know that this is not easy. And that’s by the way, what you just said is really another good rationale for being solution focused. You know, you don’t have the time, you have too many kids to work with. Luckily, what not talking, you know, six or eight meetings, you can do this in one meeting. And sometimes they’ll get a little bit better. And maybe they need a second or third, the meetings typically are not as long.

Dr. Sabella 30:10
So you might start with a 40 minute meeting and then the next one might take 30. And the one after that might only take 15 or 20, because they get used to it and they really move on, get some good momentum going. So, you know, groups, I talk about solution focused groups, and so you know, whether we can do small groups, but I also believe that this is a great tier one approach. So in the book, I talked about classroom lessons, making any lessons solution focused, if we can teach kids to be solution focused for themselves, I think that would really be amazing.

Lauren 30:43
Yeah, you’re really empowering them to solve their own problems. Like that’s what we’re saying when they’re about to leave their homes and our high school buildings, we want them to be able to do that. If you can do that on a large scale with classroom lessons, that would be huge for your school counseling program, not to have like a line out the door of students with problems, but students who are figuring those out on their own and being able to solve their own problems and think through their own feelings and emotions and build their self awareness.

Dr. Sabella 31:12
Exactly. You got it.

Lauren 31:14
Well, this sounds like an awesome technique and strategy to use if you do have a big caseload. Like that does sound like a solution that we can use, that we’re thinking about working smarter, and not spinning our wheels of just talking with no intention to students, like we want to have a game plan when we go into it. And this feels like a really practical way to do that.

Dr. Sabella 31:37
Absolutely. You know, here’s the other thing, because we’re not focusing on deficits and troubles and issues and sufferings as much. And because we’re focusing on all the positive stuff, the sensitivity goes way down. So confidentiality is not nearly as big of an issue. And so you know, I can do some of this on the phone with a caretaker or parent or guardian. I can do it in the hallway, you know, with a teacher. In fact, I’ve had kids who afterwards said, hey, you know, could you call my mama at home and tell her what we just talked about?

Dr. Sabella 32:09
Because there are maybe, you know, excited, I haven’t had this conversation ever. Because of the low risk and low sensitivity. I really do believe the model, I saw a big jump and interest in the model during COVID. And we need something that we can do with kids over a virtual environment, that isn’t as risky. And a lot of people figured it out. This was one of the big answers for that.

Lauren 32:32
That’s a good call. Because there are counselors who are only working in virtual settings, or who are following up, like you said, with conversations on the phone, whether it’s my parents or I mean, I can tell you a lot of high school students who don’t show up at school, and I’d be calling them on the phone, like, Why aren’t you in school right now? And they’d answer, but you can have those conversations with students, caretakers, anyone over the phone, like you said.

Dr. Sabella 32:55
Yeah. And so you know, as you just said that my solution focused ears started burning again, which is, you know, because we asked that question a lot, why aren’t you in school today? So how would you reframe that? So what this model says is, you know, you were in school twice last week.

Dr. Sabella 33:13
And you know, that was pretty good. And so what did you do to get yourself the school, even twice last week, and then from there, we start moving into three times. But really building on what it is that you control, that helps you and maybe we also meet with your support system to do what they can only do and what it is they can control to increase your attendance. And that comes from explaining how it is that sometimes you do make it.

Lauren 33:40
Right. You do have to be here sometimes and then we’ll be able to build on that.

Dr. Sabella 33:45
Yes, You got it.

Lauren 33:46
Well, this was super informative for me and I know listeners listening are going to appreciate as well. Is there anything we didn’t talk about that you feel like we should add about solution focused techniques?

Dr. Sabella 33:57
Oh, gosh, you know, we could talk all day. What else? What’s one more thing I would add? I would say you gotta get started. You know, these are tough times. I think this is a remedy for school counselor burnout. You know, if you stay focused on all what’s not happening, in and your barriers, and bridges all day long, what it is you’re stuck doing, and you’ll continue to be stuck. That hurts.

Dr. Sabella 34:21
And so this might be one way to keep from burning out. In fact, one of the things I’ve been doing lately, I presented this at the American School Counselor conference, just this year, is getting school counselors to do this for each other. Some solution focused school counselor support groups, and you can do it over zoom. Just to be able to say, you know, here are the things I did overcome this week. Here’s how I did it, and sharing that in a group, which I think could be very helpful.

Lauren 34:50
That’s great. Now, I will link all of your information in the show notes, but will you just quickly tell listeners where they can find you if they want to connect or tell them about your book and where they can get your book?

Dr. Sabella 35:00
Sure, yeah. Everything’s at my website schoolcounselor.com which is easy to remember schoolcounselor.com.

Lauren 35:06
Now, you had to have gotten that domain name a long time ago to just have a schoolcounselor.com. You’re an original.

Dr. Sabella 35:12
I know. I know. There’s a whole story behind that, maybe for another day, but yeah, yeah,

Lauren 35:16
Well, great. They can find all your information there or in the show notes if they want an easy click to get there. But I really appreciate you spending some time talking to high school counselors about solution focused techniques.

Dr. Sabella 35:28
Oh, my pleasure, Laura, thank you so much.

Lauren 35:30
Thank you.

Lauren 35:32
I hope this is an episode that you want to enjoy over and over again. I can see myself listening to it more than one time and walking away with something new to try each time. I love how he made solution focused counseling very attainable, something I could start practicing immediately and then see myself getting better and better at with more practice.

Lauren 35:51
Remember to visit Dr Sabella’s website to grab any of the many books he’s written. If you have the opportunity to hear him speak at a conference, definitely get yourself a seat in the room. You won’t regret it. If you liked this episode, send me a DM or an email and let me know what you thought. And I’ll see you next week.

Lauren 36:06
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of high school counseling conversations. All the links I talked about today can be found in the show notes and also at counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you never miss a new episode. Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me a DM @counselorclique. That’s CLIQUE. I’ll see you next week.