Shining a Light on Child Sex Trafficking with Krystal Nierman of Switch [Episode 150]

Lauren 0:00
Hello, I am about to bring you a guest conversation that you never even knew you needed to hear.

Lauren 0:07
I know this can be a sensitive topic that we’re about to talk about, but as are many things that we deal with in the world of high school counseling. This is one of those hard topics to hear about that lead other people to wonder how in the world we show up as high school counselors, day in and day out, to work with really hard and heavy and sensitive things.

Lauren 0:28
My guest today has been working to eradicate sex trafficking as she’s been a volunteer with a local organization that fights to educate around this issue. Krystal Nierman leads the prevention team at switch, a nonprofit organization, local to Greenville, South Carolina, which fights to end sex trafficking and sexual exploitation.

Lauren 0:47
Krystal and I connected in person, and I met her and heard about the work she was doing, and I knew she had to be on the podcast. Krystal is a member of the South Carolina Human Trafficking Task Force. She’s a wife and a mother of four kids who has actively been involved in fighting trafficking and exploitation for the last six years.

Lauren 1:06
You’re about to learn all about the prevention of sex trafficking, including how to spot it happening with our students and what to do when you suspect it. Krystal connects us to some very valuable resources. So let’s listen in to this week’s interview.

Lauren 1:24
You got into this profession to make a difference in your students’ lives, but you’re spread thin by all the things that keep getting added to your to do list. I can’t create more hours in the day, but I can invite you into my counselor clique where you’ll finally catch your breath.

Lauren 1:38
Come with me as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that’ll help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your students. I’m Lauren tingle your high school counseling hype girl here to help you energize your school counseling program and remind you of how much you love your job.

Lauren 1:56
Well, let’s dive right in. Hi Krystal. Welcome to the high school counseling conversations Podcast. I’m so excited to have you here and to talk about your topic, which is really important for counselors and really everyone to hear about.

krystal 2:08
Thanks, Lauren. I’m so excited to be here and share this information with you all.

Lauren 2:11
You work for a nonprofit called Switch. Will you tell us a little bit about the organization and like, what the goal of it is, overall?

krystal 2:19
Sure. So Switch was a nonprofit that was founded in 2012 with its main purpose to help eradicate trafficking and sexual exploitation here in the upstate of South Carolina. And so that’s like the Greenville South Carolina area. And so we do that through five different programs, so prevention, which is what we’re going to be talking about primarily today. More of what to look for and how to protect the youth that are vulnerable to this.

krystal 2:45
Awareness is where we go out and we talk to adults in the community, and we share things like what trafficking actually looks like. You know, the true identity of trafficking, and it’s very different than what the media often portrays and movies and even the news, and it’s just a lack of knowledge, so just showing that that truth about it.

krystal 3:04
Demand, which is what my husband actually leads at switch, and that’s where he goes out and talks to groups of men and just talks about how men can help be the leaders to help eradicate the demand to buy sex. If there was no demand to buy sex, there would be no reason to traffic or exploit individuals.

krystal 3:21
And then intervention. We know trafficking is happening in our area, so we go out and we meet the vulnerable populations where they are, and we just, we just love them. We just show them that agape love of no strings attached. We’re here because you are a human being and you’re valuable and you have worth, and we just want to shower you with that, that love that you probably don’t get like you deserve.

krystal 3:43
And so our goal is to show them the sincerity of our actions, so that if they feel like they are ready to get out of the life, we can be there to help hold their hand and kind of walk them through that process. And I think it might have been with FBI or Homeland Security at one of the presentations I was at by them, but she said, we don’t rescue trafficked persons. Trafficked persons rescue themselves, and we’re just there to help them. And I just thought that was so powerful and true to this particular crime.

krystal 4:13
And then the last but not least, it’s one of our our biggest spines, if you will, at switch, is for those those, we call them our participants, but for those individuals who are leaving the life of trafficking, it can be very jarring to kind of flip that switch and start a different life. And so we help them with things like counseling, obviously very you know, lots of trauma had happened to them, so having trauma informed counseling to help walk them through that to expunge their records.

krystal 4:42
You know, people that are trafficked are forced to do things that are illegal, that are crimes that they don’t want to do, but they don’t really have a choice, and so we can expunge those records that they might have that will help them actually have a better future. How to, you know, get an apartment or a house, how to get a job. And. Just the legality of of expunging the records and and that holistic approach of counseling, all of that together is what we offer our participants. And it’s just a very, very valuable piece of the puzzle that’s missing.

krystal 5:13
If you look at the national statistics for trafficking, the recidivism rate of those individuals who are getting out of trafficking but then go back into it. And this was pre covid. So the numbers might have changed since then, but it was 72% of trafficked persons go back into the life. And that was just like, like, broke my heart again. But at switch for our participants, it was like between 20 and 30% I want to say it was like 27 or 28% recidivism rate, which is just very, a very powerful, staggering difference between those two.

krystal 5:46
So that is what our restoration program is. That is our fifth leg, if you will, on how to or how we actively work with our community to help eliminate trafficking and exploitation.

Lauren 5:57
Krystal, that is incredible, like you are speaking these counselors language, who are listening to this right now, and I just think switch does an amazing job at starting from the beginning, like you said, with that proactive education piece, to everyone who’s involved, whether it’s youth and young people who are vulnerable to get into this, to men, who you said, are the in charge of the demand, basically, for this to at the tail end of getting them out and, like, helping them.

Lauren 6:28
And I love what you said. It’s such a valid point of, like, we’re here for when you’re ready to come out. Like that has to be your decision. You know, with anything the youth that we’re working with, like, if we want to see change, then that has to come from within first, or some sort of internal motivation to make a change. And so it is so encouraging to me that your services are out there to holistically, like you said, reach this really vulnerable population.

Lauren 6:58
Let me pause, because I bet there are people wondering this. You’re in the upstate of South Carolina. Are there organizations like you in other places? Are there more switch organizations, or are there other people who are doing things like this other places in the country?

krystal 7:11
So that’s a great question. So switch is specific to the upstate of South Carolina, but there are many, many for profit and nonprofit organizations throughout the country, in every state and, well, I shouldn’t say every county. I don’t know about that, but in every state, they’re there. You know, we wish there was more.

krystal 7:29
And the reality is that last year at the necosy cc Summit, so necosy is the National Center on sexual exploitation, and their CC summit happens every year. It’s the Coalition to End Sexual exploitation, and trafficking would actually fall under exploitation. It’s a type of exploitation.

krystal 7:47
And so they said that the sad reality is, with all of these organizations throughout the country, if we were to pull everybody out of trafficking who is being trafficked right now, we wouldn’t have anywhere to put them. And so there are organizations out there. We need more we need more awareness. We need more people to be properly aware of trafficking, of what it really looks like.

krystal 8:10
And it’s one of those things that you know, when you’re, you’re you’re shopping for a new car, and you, you pick this car, and you think, wow, you know, this is a really unique car. I don’t see many of these. And then you buy it, and you see them all the time, right? It’s trafficking is very much like that, where, before I was aware of switch, before I really knew what trafficking looked like, not like the movie Taken, I didn’t think it really happened in the US at all.

krystal 8:32
And now that my eyes are open and I see what trafficking looks like, which is why our organization is called switch, right? We’re switching the light on trafficking, where we’re showing that true reality of trafficking, I can just engage with people and just see people and just have this, this feeling of, I suspect that this person’s experiencing some sort of exploitation or trafficking.

krystal 8:56
And so, yes, there are many organizations throughout the United States, if you Google anti trafficking efforts in your area. I’m sure you will find something. And then, if not in your area, try the next county over. So we covered the Upstate, so it’s not just the City of Greenville, but all of the surrounding counties around us. So

Lauren 9:14
Yeah, we’ll keep people. We’ll give them the link, obviously, for your organization when we’re done with this in the show notes. But if what they’re hearing sounds interesting, or they want to further their education on it, your website would be a great place to start, and then they can kind of broaden out from there, because people are going to listen to this all over the place.

Lauren 9:30
I love that you said kind of what we’re going to get into, you’re just leading us into the next question of things that we want to be on the lookout for when it comes to sex trafficking, because people might have some preconceived notions. Or, like you said, what doesn’t happen around me, this is not something that’s that common, but maybe we just don’t know what to look for. So when we are working with high school age students, what are some warning signs that we could be looking for? What do we need to be on the lookout for as indicators that there could be sex trafficking happening with our students or around our school or in our city?

krystal 10:05
Before I answer that question, do you think that your listeners are familiar with what trafficking actually looks like? Should we start there?

Lauren 10:12
Yeah, start there.

krystal 10:13
We’ll answer that question. Okay, so they kind of go hand in hand, and that’s why I wanted to clarify, because my preconceived notions was, you know, it only happened internationally. It was only you know, the Russians that were kidnapping rich, white girls. And that’s not me. So I’m safe, you know. And so that is not what it looks like. And the sad truth is that trafficking happens within the home.

krystal 10:33
You know, most people think it happens outside of the home in a dangerous place, but if a child has a internet access and a Chromebook or a cell phone or an iPad, they’re exposed to predators who are looking to exploit them or traffic them, and it’s right out of their bedroom.

krystal 10:49
And there are so many heartbreaking stories of, you know, children and teens and young adults who literally are sleeping at home with mom and or dad at home, seemingly have the, you know, the picturesque, perfect lifestyle, and they’re sneaking out of their room in the middle of the night to be picked up by somebody, to then be trafficked and then brought back home before everybody wakes up so they can get a few hours of rest before they go back into school.

krystal 11:13
And so there has been several survivor stories where it’s happening under mom and dad’s nose and they had no idea. But then there’s also the sad reality that, you know, trafficking, it’s either one out of three or two out of three. And let’s just go with the lesser number, one out of three runaways are approached by a trafficker within 72 hours. Wow, that’s too many.

Lauren 11:33
Yeah, right.

krystal 11:33
I’m pretty sure it’s two out of three, but I don’t I’m not 100% right now, but I mean, that is just astounding to me, that the evil knowledge, the evil genius out there of one out of three runaways are going to be contacted by a trafficker within the first few days of leaving home, and that trafficker is going to say, Hey, do you need a safe place to stay? Do you need somebody to protect you? That child’s probably running away for a reason, right?

Lauren 11:55
And we all know students who have run away like that is a very common thing, whether it’s you know, for valid reasons, like their home doesn’t feel safe, or they don’t like the rules of their home, like we all know students who are leaving home and looking for an alternative.

krystal 12:10
And that trafficker is going to promise every hope and dream that that individual thinks they want and and they’re going to do it in a way that, you know, for the first few weeks it sounds like this is the perfect life. And then they’re going to use that, you know, I call it the, well, I don’t call it. It’s called the The Art of reciprocity, right? If somebody gives you something by instinct, you want to give something back.

krystal 12:30
And so, however, it’s happening, the traffickers going to say, hey, you know, I’ve been supporting you for the last few weeks. You know, I gave you a safe place to be. I let you stay out as late as you want. I let you hang out with your friends, although they are going to start to start to insert themselves between those friend relationships, right? They’re going to start to isolate very slowly. But they’ll, they’ll say this.

krystal 12:48
They’ll say, I’ll let you hang out with your friends, because they let them, like one time. And now I’m getting, you know, I’m a little tired. It’s hard to cover rent this month, so I just need to do me this favor, right? And then once they can get them to do it, once they can get them to do it again and again and again.

krystal 13:01
And then the sad reality is is specifically here in the green the Upstate, or not just the Upstate in South Carolina and the state of South Carolina, we are most known for familial trafficking, and this is where children are being trafficked by mom or dad, whether mom or dad’s a biological figure or not, but they are being trafficked by the protector of their home.

krystal 13:22
And when I first joined Switch, my kids are still young, but they were younger then, and it just wrecked me. Like, how could a mom or a dad, but a mom couldn’t, right? Like, maybe it’s a dad. How could a dad do this? And then, you know, I started learning more about Switch and and trafficking, and I realized it’s usually mom is equally, if not more, so involved in trafficking of their own child, and so it’s a generational problem.

krystal 13:48
But then when I hear from these survivors, they just said, I wish somebody would ask more questions. Like they’re taught what to say, but they’re not necessarily, like taught all of the answers, right?

Lauren 14:00
Right? I think as counselors like we’re usually willing to step into those hard conversations, but I can imagine at home feeling like, you know your teenager shuts you down, and then you know we’re we’ve all dealt with moody, angsty teenagers before. It’s like, okay, well, I guess it must be nothing because they don’t want to talk about it, or they’ve had a hard day.

Lauren 14:19
Like, as a parent, you probably need to hear things like, keep pressing in and keep asking those questions. But I’m glad we’re talking about this to counselors, because it could be like, a really sensitive topic. They could feel like, well, maybe this isn’t my place to ask these questions. Even though we’re not, we’re not always afraid to ask them, but maybe if we don’t know about it or what to ask for or look for, then I just think that this conversation is going to serve the listeners really well.

krystal 14:43
Right. And your audience is definitely going to be more geared and in tuned with reading between the lines than just a mom or a dad. It is reading between those lines. And there was one survivor of familial trafficking who, every day she said, she said, it was almost every day she got dropped off at the bus stop, a new man was picking her up.

krystal 15:00
And she was taught to tell the bus driver it was her uncle from out of town. And she said, if some if one bus driver would have just said, more than just, like, Who is that? But like, where’s your uncle from? Or does he have any kids, or how long is he staying? And yes, he’s a bus driver. He’s dropping off. He’s got to get to his next setting. But like, at some point a bus driver has to be like, how many uncles do you have?

krystal 15:20
And so just just asking more questions, not interrogating, but just caring, right? Yes. So that’s kind of how trafficking happens, right? So the trafficker, oftentimes, is not going to kidnap. I mean, that’s very rare. I’m not going to say it doesn’t happen, but it’s very rare.

krystal 15:34
They’re going to, I like to say emotionally kidnap, right? They create that emotional bondage where they they start these relationships on social media, online, and then they, you know, say, hey, let’s meet. And they meet somewhere safe, like a pizza or coffee shop, and they just start this relationship so that they can convince the child to run away, or they can traffic the child right out of their home.

krystal 15:55
So in a nutshell, that is kind of what trafficking looks like. So as a school counselor, like, what, what would you guys see, or what would you look for? And one of my favorite people to follow was Janine Driver, and she is what was known as the the human lie detector. And so CIA ATF I think maybe FBI, like they have all used her in interrogations, and she reads body language, and what I gathered from her, because my business name is dog psychology and Training Center.

krystal 16:24
I love psychology. I follow psychology a lot. And so she she said, what she picks up on is a a deviation from the normal right? And some people say, Well, if somebody’s lying, they’re not going to make eye contact, they’re going to divert their eyes. And then other people will be like, no, like, if somebody’s a really good liar, they’re going to make direct eye contact.

krystal 16:43
She says, whenever, you have to watch them in their normal, and then see when they start to deviate. And that’s how you can tell if somebody’s lying. And I feel like that’s very similar to trafficking. If a child has signs of physical abuse, burn marks, bruises, things like that, that’s not necessarily just a red flag of trafficking, right? That could be neglect or abuse in the home.

krystal 17:03
That’s still something to be concerned about. But when you see a combination of these, then I’ll go through the list and and there’s more, but I’ll go through, like, the basics, the most common that we see. But like, if you see a combination of these, or Such a deviation from the norm, even if it’s just one red flag, but it’s like, wow, that individual was not like that a couple of weeks ago or even a couple months ago, or even last school year, and they’re just so different. And yes, you know, maturity, you know…

Lauren 17:31
But alot of these counselors are following their students through for many years. And like, yeah, you might not know them that well their freshman year, but you kind of know, like what’s normal for them, or if you’ve had their siblings or their teachers know what to look for. So this is right on track, like they’re going to understand and they’re going to know what you’re talking about.

krystal 17:49
Okay, good. So main red flags that we commonly see are going to be that withdrawn behavior, a child who’s pulling into themselves, maybe distancing them from from their themselves, from their friend groups, or starting to have older friend groups that are outside of the school. Like they’re meeting up with or they’re always talking about this other friend that’s older. Unexplained absences from school, or maybe sleeping through classes, especially those early period classes, like they’re they’re working at night, right?

krystal 18:16
They’re not getting enough rest. And I was an insomniac in school, so I did not sleep very well, but I also loved school, so I never slept in class. That would be not me as a teacher’s pet, but, but like, I get that staying up late and that that tiredness throughout the day, so that sudden tiredness, right?

krystal 18:32
Like somebody who’s just really was maybe a active student, a participating student, or maybe not, but just all of a sudden, sleeping a lot, disengaged, not answering questions, maybe less appropriately dressed than normal. And again, we’re talking about like that middle school, you know, teenage years, where they’re still trying to become themselves, right? They’re still trying to identify but you’ll you notice those drastic changes.

krystal 18:54
There are some friends that I have that just, they can wear outfits that I would like I would never be caught dead in, but they rock it so well, right? They own it like that’s just not me. I never had that kind of confidence. But I would never say my friends were were red flags of trafficking, right?

Lauren 19:08
But if you were dressed as you normally do, and then you go to that extreme, people might have questions .

krystal 19:14
Exactly. There would be some, some eyebrows raised. And I think just realizing those subtle changes that can seem very, almost commonplace sometimes for this age group, but they don’t have to be commonplace, right?

Speaker 1 19:14
Especially like you said, if they’re in combination with each other, or they’re so different from what this student normally is.

krystal 19:34
Right. And, and there’s always, you know, those, those gray areas, but these are just signs, right? A combination is more concerning, maybe a second mobile phone, like, Why does a child need two phones?

Lauren 19:45
Do we need one phone, even? We could go on a tangent about exactly, exactly?

krystal 19:50
Let’s just get rid of all of them. But kids do get dead phones from their families that nobody’s using and give to their other friends who’s maybe their parents have more restrictions on their phones. And so they’re like, here you can bypass Snapchat with this phone. And so kids may have other phones for more innocent still guilty reasons, but that is a big red flag, and that is a device that a trafficker will give a student so that they can have isolated conversations to know that no adult is going to be having sensors or, yeah, protections on.

krystal 20:20
Maybe, like a sudden change in emotional health. So maybe they’re depressed, maybe they start cutting, maybe they just start to have those emotional or mental health changes that are not normal for that age group. Starts to have a lot of money, right? Like they come in with nice shoes, nice purses, nice clothes, starts talking about having all this extra money, or a way that you can make money.

Lauren 20:44
That was, I think I told you this before, but that was one of my experiences with a student where that was the big red flag for me that I was starting to ask questions about, like, I know your background, and it does not involve this sudden influx of money and privilege that you’re getting because of this. So it made me ask questions and get a training on this exact thing.

krystal 21:05
Absolutely. That is very common. And again, it would be something to be like, we could excuse that, like, maybe they just got a job. Maybe they got, you know, and so they’re, they’re getting this money, ask questions, that’s really all. What it comes down to, you know, just start to have those conversations. Tattoos, subtle tattoos as well. Traffickers can be very bold and brazen and just put that crown right on the center chest, but they can also do it on the inside of the lip or right behind the ear, and so subtle places like that too, which would be harder to detect, but if you see something like that, you know those, those hidden tattoos, it’s more, I think it’s more warranting of questions, right?

krystal 21:40
And then the tattoos can be very typical, where I would say daddy or crown, you know, the tattoo of the crown and, and that’s kind of like the trafficker signature, their branding, or it could just be their name. New tattoos of any kind on a child are going to be like, Oh, when did this happen? Because parents have to give consent, right? An adult has to give consent. I should say.

krystal 22:03
We already talked about older friends, but specifically older boyfriends or older girlfriends. It’s very wrong. There’s no nice way to put it for a person who is, you know, 19,20, 25 to be engaging with a 16,17, year old girl. That’s very concerning. You know, if it’s, you know, an 18 or 19 year old who just graduated, a couple years ago, like, maybe, maybe it is a kosher relationship, but those older boyfriend or girlfriends can definitely start to raise those red flags, especially because that prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed, right, and so it just puts them at a disadvantage, even though they’re almost an adult, or even if they are 18 and they are considered legally an adult, but that’s 26 year old guy.

krystal 22:44
Well, his prefrontal cortex is developed. Yours isn’t right. He’s going to use that to manipulate you. And then just disjointed families. Nobody has that perfect home. It’s really hard to find that nuclear family nowadays, but even if they have a nuclear family, even even if they don’t have a nuclear family, you will see changes, right? Whether it’s emotional, whether it’s tiredness, whether it’s bruises or their their anxiety level, right, all of these things kind of feed in.

krystal 23:13
So sudden running away or a youth that they just always ran away. Well, don’t write them off, because we know one out of three or even two out of three between there, they’re going to be approached by a trafficker. So if they’re a continuous runaway, which we know many runaways do it again and again and again, they’re going to be more at risk. Yeah, exactly. And they may already have been contacted by a trafficker.

krystal 23:35
When I go into schools and I start teaching about trafficking, and I start showing them what trafficking and exploitation looks like I’ll start to see those hands go up real slowly, like, Hey, I had some creeper, you know, message me, and I just blocked them. And I’m like, well, good for you, but like, they have this happen to them all the time, and they’re just like, I get sick of blocking them. It just happens so often. I’m like, I’m so sorry you shouldn’t have to deal with that.

krystal 23:58
Like, my life was not like that when I was your age, and I’m so sorry that you have to protect yourself again and again and again. Children that are teenagers that are living with friends. You know that’s concerning. Why are you living with friends? Are you protected there? Are you safe? Is there an adult in charge? And then those that are just experiencing homelessness.

krystal 24:17
So again, why are you experiencing homelessness? Do you have a safe place to go? Can we make sure that we can find you a a teen shelter or a foster home, which hesitated to say it, because I love I love many foster parents, but we also know those predators who prey on children, put themselves into positions to acquire children.

krystal 24:39
I would definitely follow those channels, but I would definitely stay with that child longer to make sure whatever foster home they get placed in is a good, loving home, which the majority are. So I don’t want like people to think that, you know, they’re bad, but I just, I hear too many stories.

Lauren 24:53
Yeah, I bet you’ve heard you’ve heard it all, that you have to have, like, be on high alert all the time, and. I would say counselors are in a similar position. They hear so many stories. You you want to trust your gut and be like, Oh, I think this is fine, but we know that if we’re going to ask questions, it’s not going to hurt. You know, I would rather ask the questions and be wrong or refer to the right people who can help and be wrong and have helped someone along the way than not have done anything.

Lauren 25:23
So, I mean, you’re saying all of these things that we need to be on the lookout for. I think it’s really smart. Can you tell me? I know you do, like preventative work in schools with you know, all students, all backgrounds, all family backgrounds. Are our guys or girls are like, being more affected by this? You’re it sounds like you’re doing the presentations for everyone in this school. So there are, there. Are you seeing more trends in this? Is like, just a girl problem? I don’t think so. Right?

krystal 25:53
Not at all, not at all. So I hear even my own girlfriends who like, oh Krystal, I’m so glad you’re working with switch and making changes. I’m just so glad I have a boy, and I’m like, no boys are just as likely to be trafficked as girls. And so it’s estimated anywhere between 25 to 45% of victims are male.

krystal 26:13
And so people will say, Well, why is there such a variation in that? Why don’t you just know? Well, because there’s a 20 year disclosure gap for males, right? So females, it’s not easy for a female to come forward and say that I was a victim, that I was abused, but we societally make it more difficult for a male to do that.

krystal 26:31
And so from a young age, you know, I have to catch myself with my own son as he’s going through hormonal changes, and he’s a very emotional boy right now. He’s crying all the time. It’s like, go clean your room. And so I have to catch myself and be like, stop crying. Boys, don’t cry, because that’s not true, right? Like his dad cries more than I do half the time, like when I gave birth to all of our children, he cried. I didn’t, you know, like it is okay for boys to cry, and we just make it more difficult for them.

krystal 26:57
So I say that to say that trafficking, even though it’s been around forever, right? There’s hints of it in the Bible. It wasn’t really recognized as trafficking until the early 2000s and so we have 20 years right now. We’re kind of at that 20 year cusp where more and more men are finally coming forward and sharing the trafficking instances that they have been going through as as children or young adults or young men.

krystal 27:26
And so we’re just on the cusp of really getting those statistics. So that’s why there’s such a variance there. But what I like to look at as a reference for today. What are we dealing with is going to NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and they are really good about posting statistics, although, like you mentioned earlier, like they keep putting things in different places. And I’m like, wait, where is that page that had all the statistics, right?

krystal 27:50
But if you, if you hunt around on their page, you will find it. And so they have CSAM Child Sexual Abuse material, and we’ll get into that more in just a second, as we talk about sextortion and things like that, but see CSAM, Child Sexual Abuse Material is when you say, report this video or image as inappropriate because there’s a child in it.

krystal 28:10
Some people would call it child pornography, but I refuse to use that term because that implies that children consented to be in pornography, and children under the age of 18 cannot consent to sex, commercial sex, even if they want to, they can’t consent to that. It’s illegal. It’s automatically considered a child trafficking situation.

krystal 28:30
Even if a teenager says, I want to be a porn star and they decide to do that, you can’t. So whoever is buying that or facilitating that for you would also be arrested under child sex trafficking, because that’s it’s you just can’t do it. So anyways.

Lauren 28:45
Yeah no, I think that that hearing that is, like, really helpful, like, you think you say it out loud, and you’re like, Well, of course, that makes sense. But with, without the education, and without hearing an expert talk about this, we don’t know that language behind it, you know. And in your mind, you might think, Well, yeah, but of course, if someone brought that up, I would say, I don’t think that that’s right, but you’re saying, you’re telling us black and white, it is not, it is illegal.

krystal 29:09
And it kind of goes back to, I don’t know if you guys or your followers have followed that Jeffrey Epstein case and Ghislaine Maxwell, but I was obsessed with it. The quick turnout from, you know, like having somebody at your school say, Hey, do you want to make a quick couple $100 to showing up at this mansion and walking into the house and allowing, I say allowing in quotes, because we’ll get to, you know,

Lauren 29:31
what is allowed, what’s legal, right?

krystal 29:34
And so, you know, allowing that abuse to happen. There was so much grooming that happened from that person I met at school to that fancy car ride, because they would get picked up. They don’t have cars. They’re not even old enough to drive, right? So they’d get picked up in a fancy car, drove to this mansion far away from their home, right? So now we’re isolating you. We’re having you in this, this, this fancy car.

krystal 29:55
So you’re, you’re, you’re already thinking, wow, this person has a lot of money. Then you show up to this mansion, you think, oh, this person doesn’t just have money, like they have a lot of money. And then you start walking through this house, and you see pictures of this person with past presidents and and famous people. And you think, wow, he doesn’t just have money. He has power, right?

krystal 30:12
And then you go up to the room to give the massage, and then he asks you to do something else than what you were anticipating. And you say, Okay, you didn’t allow that young person, you were coerced and manipulated to be put into a situation, to be abused. And that’s why I said I’ll come back to that aloud, because it just it gives me goosebumps every time I talk about I get so angry.

krystal 30:31
You did not allow that, and that was like the trauma that those victims really struggled with for the majority of their lives, for multitude of reasons, because the law did not favor their side, right? Law enforcement allowed this to happen. FBI allowed this to happen. Attorney General’s Office allowed this to happen. And they were they were called Child prostitutes, and so they thought, I chose that. I made that choice. I knew it was weird, and so it was my fault.

Lauren 30:54
And they get this label put on them, and then they don’t want to come forward, because they’re not recognizing it as abuse or trauma.

krystal 31:01
And there’s so much more to that case that I could go on forever. So I’m not, I’m just going to wrap it up there. But I say, like at the beginning, when I said, you know, media, even the news, don’t get it right. Like the news is actually what labeled those victims child prostitutes in that original case of Jeffrey Epstein, back in like, the early…was it 2004, 2006 I don’t know it was between there and 2011 but they labeled them that.

krystal 31:23
And I was like, Oh, you guys just don’t know that’s not even a legal like the legally can’t even be, but you just don’t know what you don’t know. So anyways, moving forward, all CSAM material, child sexual abuse or child pornography material gets reported to NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and on their website, they break it down by the percentage of male versus female victims.

krystal 31:44
And on their website, it was like 43% I believe. And this was not last year, but the year before. So 2022, and I was just like that to me, is a more accurate representation of the percent of males that are possibly trafficked right now. So, so, yes, this is a boy and girl problem, right?

Lauren 32:03
Like, to me, you’re you’re saying it’s not, doesn’t discriminate. Like every, every kid is hearing the same messaging from that phone, from their peers, from strangers, like they’re all hearing it. And there’s not one population that is exempt from from this messaging that they could potentially be hearing.

krystal 32:21
Exactly spot on. And there are more vulnerabilities that make it more possible for a trafficker..

Lauren 32:28
like you said, the runaways, the foster kid…

krystal 32:31
Yes, or children living in a, you know, a not safe or neglectful home. But there are children that are good from good homes that also experience this. So it really it knows no discrimination.

Lauren 32:44
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Lauren 33:00
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krystal 33:22
And so then the other side of that is there are different ways that male versus female are exploited or trafficked. And so when it comes to like, sextortion, for example, this is a newer, again, not necessarily newer, but newly identified legally crime. It is recently gotten a lot of media coverage because the the there’s two types of sextortion.

krystal 33:47
There is sexual sextortion, and there is financial sextortion. And the financial sextortion is targeting young males. And I think it was officer Gomez I follow on on Facebook. That was somebody asked him he was doing an interview, and somebody asked him, like, well, like, what can we do to help these males not click, like, not send their their nude image? And he’s like, nothing. They’re a teenage boy that just got sent a nude image of a girl that looks their age and said, send me one back, and they’re like, Okay.

Lauren 34:14
Talk about that prefrontal cortex, right?

krystal 34:16
That instinct, right? Males are males, right? And so they just, they don’t stand a chance, and it’s just not fair. But that’s, that’s reality. And you know, we can, we can preach knowledge all day long, but we’re really battling those, those instincts, right? And those hormones, right? It’s just super hard to get past that.

krystal 34:34
But what’s happening is, with with the financial sextortion, as soon as that that young boy sends, or young man sends his picture, immediately, they’re saying, Send me X amount of dollars in iTunes cards or whatever. Or I’m going to share this picture to your mom’s work, to your school, to your church group. Because they’ve done their research. They scouted this person’s social media page. They know all about this child.

Lauren 34:56
That’s terrifying.

krystal 34:57
This young man can’t think of his life moving forward like. And so within there was one case that I used as an example in my presentation from Michigan. I think it was within 20 minutes. I mean, it was so quick. He ended his life because he could just not think about his life moving forward if this happened. And so FBI is really taking this serious. Our local law enforcement is taking this very serious. So that’s the financial side, and that financial side really does target those young males.

krystal 35:27
The sexual side, from the research that I have seen and the cases that I have seen come across, I see that sexual side more targeting females, not that that’s not targeting males as well, because it does. But that financial side is mostly males, but that sexual side is mostly females, and that’s more of like it starts as those friendly relationships of, Oh, I saw your post about, you know, your parents just not getting you. My parents didn’t get me either.

krystal 35:57
And so the building that relationship and that trust to the point where it’s like, hey, you know, what? Can you send me a shot of a picture of you, and it’s full of cloth and it’s innocent. And so they, you know, talk some more, and it’s like, Hey, could you send me, you know, a picture of you in your bathing suit? Again? Like, that’s normal, right? Like, half the TV and ads that we see on billboards and a magazine? Well, I don’t think kids look at magazines anymore, but, you know, people are half dressed like that, right?

krystal 36:20
So bathing suits like, Sure, it’s covering everything. And then it’s like, hey, send me a topless. And it gets to the point where this, this predator, has so much control over this young girl that he makes them turn on their webcam as soon as they get home from school, and they have to stay in their room, and they have to do everything in front of them, and they’re always being watched, and they have to undress in front of them, and they have to dress in front of them, and it’s just like, I cannot imagine being that age and having that kind of pressure, right?

krystal 36:47
And mom and dad all the while are at home with them and have no idea. So having counselors be aware of this and to have their eyes open to it, to to make those interventions, to start those conversations, to talk with mom and dad. And you know, when it comes to familial trafficking or trafficking, where you suspect that it may the abuse may be coming from home, whether you’re thinking it’s trafficking or not, it could just be sexual abuse. It could be trafficking. It could just be physical abuse or emotional abuse.

krystal 37:17
Like, walk carefully. I know you’re supposed to talk to the parents first, but if the parents so, when I come back to the familial trafficking, when I heard those survivors, I was wrecked for weeks, by the way, because I’m a call to action person, I was like, what do we need to do? How can we help you? And there was no answers. It’s not an easy crime to fight.

krystal 37:37
But what they did share was just what they wished somebody would have done.

Lauren 37:42
Yeah, tell us what they said about that.

krystal 37:44
And so the one thing they said most unanimously was just to ask more questions. But so many of them said that they would tell their teacher what was happening at home, and their teacher would tell mom and dad, Hey, did you hear what so and so just told me? Can you believe that? And they’re like, No, I can’t believe that that’s crazy. Like, we’ll definitely make sure they see a counselor and get some help. Like, obviously, they have some stuff going on up there that, like, they’re just making this stuff up. And, no.

Lauren 38:10
Yeah and I think that counselors, counselors are probably more aware of it than teachers, in terms of, like, when they’re reporting things, I feel like a teacher gets really nervous because they don’t deal with it all the time. So therefore, since things just like to call her, call home, whereas, like,

Lauren 38:23
we are calling DSS, we’re making those reports, and we understand that it’s confidential, and you kind of can, like, put the pieces together. If it is, if they are saying it’s something about mom or dad, like, I’m not picking up the phone necessarily and calling them right there to confirm that, because I know that’s not the safe place to go home to, and I’m kind of starting my investigation, or, you know, with that in mind.

krystal 38:46
Right. And it is. It’s a careful balance to have because, you know, mom and dad are the legal caretakers. They legally should be, you know, notified, but that’s one of those times that you would want to notify social services and parents at the same time and not let parents take the child home until everybody gets there.

krystal 39:04
And so it is. It gets scary in that regard, when it comes to that internal trafficking, right, that familial trafficking or abuse in the home, because we don’t want to make it worse for the child. And that’s what they said like after they they did share and were not believed. They were disciplined and punished very badly for that, and they never did it again. And it was just like, Oh, my heart breaks so bad, right?

krystal 39:25
Because I know that there are children right now in our county that are experiencing this, and we just we don’t know who they are, we don’t know how to reach them. And so that’s my favorite part of what I do, like I I mentioned, I cry a lot. I cry a lot. I’m very emotional.

Lauren 39:39
As anyone would be, I think, working in a position like this, and then especially if, like, you have a heart for this, and you want to help people and see people get out of this and be a survivor and not a victim.

krystal 39:51
Yes. And so, like, I was like, Why do you still do it? How do you still do it? And I know not all of your audience is going to be religious, but I am, and. And the only reason I get through this is because I do feel directly called by the Holy Spirit to do this. And I have wanted to quit so many times, and has picked me up and just put me in those right positions that I’m like, You know what? I can’t quit.

krystal 40:10
And so I will say there are great moments that, you know, I’m out in the community with my family, and somebody will come out and be like, Miss Krystal, did you teach at my school? And I’m like, No, I’m not a teacher. And they’re like, Oh, I thought you came in and talked about travel, like, Oh no, I did. I did, yeah, but I have those moments, and that’s that’s what empowers me to keep going.

krystal 40:26
And my hope is that by prevention, two things, one, I can be that person that comes in and says, what you’re dealing with is not okay, and there are resources to get out of that, and I’m here to help you and share those resources, so when you’re ready, you can do that.

krystal 40:40
And then two is our generation is too old to end this. Right? It’s so set in its ways, it’s too far gone for our generation. But your generation, your generation can be the generation to eradicate this. Your generation can be the generation to be like, You know what? I was taught about, those exploiters and those traffickers and those child predators. I’m not going to fall for those games on social media. I’m going to I’m not going to let my friends fall for those games. I’m going to stop looking at porn, because it is not a victimless crime. It fuels the demand for sex trafficking.

krystal 41:10
45% of people who were trafficked said that they had pornography made of them against their will. And so for my youth that are like, oh, you know, they chose that lifestyle. Maybe some did. And often I’ve read stories where they did, maybe choose that life and then often regretted it after. But 45% were forced to, and that just you don’t know who it is, because they’re all acting right.

krystal 41:31
And so you guys could be that generation that breaks that cycle, that stops feeding that demand that traffickers were like, Man, I want to traffic somebody because it’s good money, but there’s nobody buying so I guess I don’t have a job.

Lauren 41:42
So that’s your pep talk that you’re telling, like high school aged kids. It’s like you can be the one who ends this. If you are empowered, if you know how to say no, if you know the signs to look forward to.

krystal 41:52
Yes, yes, they are the generation that could unite to to at least dampen it, you know. And like I said, it’s been around since biblical times. I don’t think it’ll ever be eradicated, because sin is in the world. Evil’s in the world. But we can diminish it, and their generation is the one to do that.

krystal 42:05
So, you know, I think knowledge is power, being aware of what it really looks like, having, you know, these conversations with youth and letting them be aware. You know, if you catch a child viewing pornography, like talking about that side and how it leads to trafficking, how it normalizes exploitation and abuse, because that is not what loving relationships look like at all. That’s not normal.

krystal 42:27
And then identifying the true red flags of trafficking, having that knowledge, you’ll just be in such a better place to empower yourself and your students to stay safe.

Lauren 42:38
Totally, you’ve given us so many things to think about, and you have a lot of like, I mean, you don’t have all the solutions, but you’ve got more solutions than the rest of us. Tell us, like, what we should do if we are suspicious of this happening with our students or in our school, like, Who do we call? Who do we involve? What resources are out there?

krystal 42:57
There’s so many resources. My first step would be NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. My second would be NCSE. They’re so similar, I used to often get them confused, which is the National Center for sexual exploitation. And if you just Google those there, the websites will come up, but they have just really great information.

krystal 43:16
You know, NCMEC is going to be more specifically tailored to children, but they have information on trafficking, sextortion, runaway youth, all of that stuff. And then NCSE is just a leader and constantly gaining new information, because this is not a crime that stays the same, which is also why it’s so hard to catch and eradicate. It is evolving and changing.

krystal 43:38
You know, when covid was happening. And everybody was, you know, freaking out, rightfully so, it was new. And everybody you know was unsure. I was I was banned from Facebook a few times because I was all about the children and not about the virus. And I was like, who cares about this virus? It’s not affecting children right now, but these children who are kicked out of not kicked out of school, but are not able to go to school, Child Exploitation between March of 2020, to June of 2020, increased by 300%

krystal 44:07
Because we sent home in our in our county, what used to be third grade and up, you got to get a Chromebook if you had that internet talk by our Internet safety guy, which is with Greenville County Police Department. And he come in all the schools and do his talk. When covid hit, we sent everybody home with Chrome books and no no Internet safety talks anymore.

krystal 44:25
In the most stressful time of our generation, right? Mom and Dad were stressed me and my husband were like, it didn’t affect us at all, because we already worked together at home. We like, we’re always here together anyways, but having mom like, we had to go through counseling when we first started working together, because I was like, I can’t leave you, like, I don’t get a break from you.

Lauren 44:44
And that’s what everybody felt when they got sent home.

krystal 44:48
Everybody at the same time, got that stress of being pushed in the same home, that the stress of the virus, the stress of being in the same home. And so what do children do when they get stressed? They detach, right? They go to social. Media. We also know that many children who engage in porn, the reason for going to porn is stress that helps reduce stress, which it does, right? That dopamine release that is supposed to be a very beautiful thing, but it’s done in such a way that’s not normal.

krystal 45:12
So the body keeps craving more of it because it didn’t satisfy the way it fully should have, if it was a loving relationship between two consenting adults, right? And so that that pornography use increased among youth, they kept turning to the internet, and then what do predators do? They’re just sitting there, you know, tapping the little fingertips together, saying, Come to me children, because they could relate to all of these kids now that are stressed beyond reason, living in a home that’s probably very stressed, or mom and dad are probably fighting a little bit more than usual, because there’s no breath right?

krystal 45:43
There’s no breath away from anybody. That changed the face of exploitation and trafficking drastically for children. Not only did it put these devices in front of children, but we haven’t stopped. That exploitation has stayed the same. It hadn’t gone back down after covid, because trafficking involved, right? These predators learn new ways, and so that that exploitation is still so high online, it’s just, it’s, it’s sad but true.

Lauren 46:11
So you go, like to the NCMEC website, right? And like, you can report right on there. And I remember going to a presentation about something similar to this at our national our at our national conference, it’s called ASCA, and it was someone from NCMEC. And I remember thinking, Wow. I thought this was like a very just like, far away organization, you know what I mean?

Lauren 46:33
Like, if I put my report in here, like, maybe AI somewhere is going to read it? Like, no, a person is reading that and starting an investigation when you put in like it is taken seriously. So like that is somewhere that you should go directly if you have a what you think might be a report to make, right?

krystal 46:51
And if you’re making reports, I’m a mandated reporter. You guys are mandated reporters. We have to, you know, kind of follow whatever chain of command the school has. But you also have to report yourself. And I just want to emphasize that again, because some schools will say I will take care of it. Okay, good. I’m going to take care of it too, because we’re both legally responsible too.

krystal 47:09
And just make sure you guys are empowered to have that and know that, because you can’t trust somebody else to do it, you can only trust yourself to do it, and I can hope other people will do it. And I I give a lot of people like that benefit of the doubt, but I’m still going to do it just in case.

krystal 47:23
Yeah, and so reporting it is going to be to law enforcement and social services, because we’re dealing with underage individuals here, possibly involving the family. Well, you definitely will, but like, at what point, right do we contact Social Services first, because we think it might be within the home, or do we think it’s outside of the home? And we need to make sure mom and dad get here today, because they need to know that this child’s being harassed online in their bedroom, right?

krystal 47:45
And I will say NCSE and NCMEC, even the FBI office are going to be really great resources if you’re like, I feel like I should report this, but I’m not really sure I have enough evidence yet. What else do I need? Honestly, you don’t need anything. You just need a suspicion, and so that’s enough to report.

krystal 48:03
But then as far as how to follow up with that child, and like, what steps you need to take after that report, because you are still oftentimes seeing that individual, right? You’re seeing that child, those three websites, are going to be the best resources to helping you grow with this child to be better equipped to help them heal from this trauma.

krystal 48:25
And so NCMEC National Center for Missing exploiting children actually has support groups online for victims of sextortion, of of trafficking, of sexual abuse. I just, I just love that they’re, they’re filling the gap, you know, we we even in in where we are in Greenville, South Carolina. I’m from a small town just outside of the city, and I am a dog trainer by trade, who does this voluntarily. I don’t get paid for any of this. This is just where my heart is and my passion. And I have actually taught some of our smaller town precincts law enforcement officers about trafficking, and I’m like, I’m not qualified.

Lauren 49:05
Well, but I hear you saying that to say, like we might not feel qualified to evaluate what this what this student is going through. But that doesn’t mean we can’t have eyes and ears to be watching and then connect them to the resources where they’re going to get the help, where we’re going to I this is what I tell students. It’s like, I am going to make this report because I know that you’re not safe. But somebody else will make the decision.

Lauren 49:31
Like they will take the facts, they will ask the questions. We are the connecting piece as the counselor, that happens in so many different things that we do, but in terms of student safety. This is a big part of what we’re doing, is getting the student to the right resources and letting letting those people make that decision too. They’ll ask the questions, they’ll interview the people, and we just get to be the connecting point, but like, if we’re not, then who’s going to do it?

krystal 49:55
Exactly. And I, I just share that to say that if you’re in an area where your law enforcement does not take it as seriously as you expected, it’s okay. There are other resources, like NCMEC and the FBI field offices that are in your area or that or maybe not in your area, but cover your area. They might be like three hours away, they still cover your jurisdiction.

krystal 50:18
You can reach out to those offices to make sure that this child is getting the care and the support that they need. And you know, I’m in a lot of Facebook groups where, you know, people will share things, and often they’ll they’ll say, Well, you know, my child was a victim of sextortion, and I reported it, and the law enforcement said that my child, if I move forward with this case, would be convicted of distribution of CSAM Child Sexual Abuse material because they sent a nude image of themselves.

krystal 50:43
I’m like, no, no. If your child sexts another child, they could be convicted of child distribution or distribution of child sexual abuse material. They could. Law enforcement doesn’t want to make a child of

Lauren 50:56
That’s not the end goal is to put that label on someone.

krystal 50:59
Sometimes they do have to put that fear into a school because it is so bad that, you know, it does get shared, and then it becomes a big problem. But if your child’s a victim of a crime, it doesn’t matter that your child shared that picture, because right now, the most important thing is arresting that adult on the other end of the screen who willingly and knowingly took advantage of your child.

krystal 51:21
Your child’s innocent here, even though law enforcement threatened them. And so, like my response is always, contact a lawyer, contact your FBI field office. They’re going to make sure that your child’s not going to be in trouble for this, and that the real predator is going to be punished for making your child a victim.

Lauren 51:36
And I think that’s so important for for us to understand that as, like, safe adults who are having conversations with kids, so that we can encourage them that exactly what you said before, like, so many of these instances, are not being reported because they think like it was my fault, or someone told me this, that this label is going to be slapped on me, or they feel like they don’t want to be in trouble. Yeah, yeah. They feel like they’re they’re going to be in the wrong. And it’s like, no, no. You need to be heard. Your voice needs to be heard. Be heard, and we need to put an end to this.

krystal 52:04
Exactly, or it’s going to keep happening. And it has, and it has been increasing. And so I think it is the time to raise our voices, to speak loud and clear and to advocate for our youth, because parents just aren’t aware. And so when children try to talk to talk to them about this. And like you mentioned, you know, teachers aren’t always as educated as you guys are on how to do trauma informed questions and and to be aware of it, I think it just comes down to the reality of ignorance is bliss, right? If you don’t know this kind of abuse and darkness is out there, when you hear about it, you’re like, No, that wouldn’t happen.

Lauren 52:38
Right. Not not in my school, in my town.

krystal 52:41
Not to my kid. And so it’s really hard then to lift that veil and see reality. But if we can raise awareness in our schools, you know, maybe hold little, you know, teacher conferences to kind of like, hand out some pamphlets on trafficking and exploitation and say, Hey, did you guys know so that if a child was to disclose, a teacher’s not going to be so caught off guard, they’re going to be like, what?

krystal 53:05
That couldn’t have happened to you. I’m sure you just misunderstood or overreacted. No, it did. And so we just, we need to get up to date with the exposure that our children are seeing on a daily basis, so that we can be better prepared to help them when they when they do, turn to us instead of scaring them away and being like, nobody can help me, because nobody gets this.

Lauren 53:25
Well, Krystal, this is incredible. You gave us so much good information. I think that people are going to leave with more knowledge. They’re going to feel empowered that they can have these conversations and they know what to do with them. Or, you know, if anything, if they’ve never even run into this, or they’ve never noticed that they’re like running into this, that their eyes would hopefully be open, that when it does happen around them, or, you know, on their caseload of students, that they’re the person who is in their department with other counselors saying, Hey, I heard something about this, like, this is what we go do about it now.

Lauren 53:58
So I really appreciate you spending your time sharing this with us, especially, like you said, like this is just a passion of yours and a place where it should be encouraging to all of us that, like you’ve gone and done all the research and you have looked into this, it’s something you’re passionate about. You’re volunteering in your community with it’s like they can do that too. There’s encouragement that they can learn this stuff too. It’s not new information that they’ve probably heard some of this before, but this was super eye opening, and I think it’s gonna be an incredible interview for people to listen to.

krystal 54:28
Thanks so much for having me, Lauren, and you know, I’m just glad to be able to share this here and together. I know we can make a bigger difference.

Lauren 54:35
Thank you, Krystal.

Lauren 54:37
Ya’ll. Was that not incredible? I feel so empowered to know what to look for and what to do in this extremely sensitive situation. It’s wild how prevalent it is. And I’d encourage you to go check out those resources that Crystal mentioned, like NCMEC and NCSE, which I’ll link in the show notes.

Lauren 54:55
At least check out those websites to see what resources are out there and familiarize yourself with what reporting looks like when it does happen in your school. Another challenge I’d have for you is to start a conversation with your school resource officer about any trends they’re seeing in your school or in your community around sex trafficking.

Lauren 55:14
And then lastly, would you share this episode with another counselor who you think would benefit from hearing it? I know a lot of counselors use my podcast episodes as mini PD like with their department. So what if you did that with this episode? Everyone listens on their own time and then comes back together to talk about this vulnerable population and how you can bring awareness to this issue in your school.

Lauren 55:34
I think we’d make a huge impact as high school counselors who are opening this conversation amongst each other and then shining light on it in our schools. So thanks for listening to this week’s episode. It was a much needed conversation. I’m so glad we had it, and I hope you took away something new from it. I’ll see you next week.

Lauren 55:53
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of high school counseling conversations. All the links I talked about today can be found in the show notes and also at counselorclique.com/podcast be sure to hit follow wherever you listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode. Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me a DM at @counselorclique. That’s C, l, I, Q, U, E. I’ll see you next week.