An Administrator’s Perception of School Counselors and the Roles They Play [Episode 71]

Lauren
Hi there. Welcome back to another episode of HighSschool Counseling Conversations. I have a yet to have a podcast with an administrator on the show. Now I have talked about administrator relationships in the past, but this is the first time I’m having one. Come on an episode with me. I want to introduce you to Mr. Eric Williams. I worked with three different principals throughout my time in high school and he was the middle one of the three and we worked together for five years. First, let me introduce you to him and then I’ll give you a preview of what’s to come.

Lauren
Mr. Eric Williams began his career as a career and technology educator as a health science teacher at Enery Career Center here in Greenville, South Carolina. He developed strong programs in sports medicine, emergency response, and pharmacy tech. He has served in a variety of educational leadership roles in Greenville County Schools, including principal of both Riverside Middle School and Wade Hampton High School. Eric’s leadership experience at the secondary level as well as his knowledge of CTE programs are beneficial in providing meaningful career readiness opportunities to the students of Greenville County.

Lauren
In this episode, you’ll hear about how his perception of school counselors and their roles changed over time, why this was scary for him, and then how it ended up playing out. We talked about current trends and career readiness and what to do if your administrator is solely focused on graduation rates. Our conversation really made me reflect on the fact that your admin makes such a big difference in your job satisfaction. You can have different job experiences, depending on who your admin is and how they’re leading you. They can add or take away from that job satisfaction for sure. If you’re not in a place where you feel supported by your current administrators, I hope that this episode is an encouragement that it doesn’t always have to be like that, while also giving you some ideas on how to move forward if that is the case for you. If you already have a strong relationship with your principal or your assistant principals, I hope that our chat will encourage you to keep fighting that good fight because it is so worthwhile. Let’s listen in to this week’s show.

Lauren
You got into this profession to make a difference in your students lives. But you’re spread thin by all the things that keep getting added to your to do list. I can’t create more hours in the day. But I can invite you into my Counselor Clique where you’ll finally catch your breath. Come with me as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that’ll help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your students. I’m Lauren Tingle your high school counseling hype girl here to help you energize your school counseling program and remind you of how much you love your job.

Lauren
I mean, I don’t call you Eric ever I call you Mr. Williams. But this is gonna it’s a different dynamic. But thank you for being here with me today. I’m excited to have you on the podcast.

Eric
I’m excited to be here. This is pretty neat and just excited to talk through a bunch of different things. I’ve had a lot of experiences with school counselors, and I think some really great and beneficial relationships. And so I love talking about it. And I’m happy to do it.

Lauren
Well, your background has been, you know, in the classroom, in the school’s, principal. And now moving to the district office, will you tell us a little bit about how your dynamic with school counselors has grown evolved or changed throughout those different leadership roles?

Eric
Sure, started my career as a career center teacher at Enery Career Center and had a great relationship, at the career center level, you really tried to recruit students, students don’t have to come so worked very closely with our school counselor there to try to recruit students and get students into the Sports Med program that I was I was trying to build.

Eric
Pretty quickly moved into administration as an assistant principal, your relationship with that school counselor is a little different than it is with a principal but you’re really working to try to benefit your students and try to help them. Oftentimes on the AP side, it’s, you know, trying to help them work through discipline situations or do some, you know, after discipline follow up with with those students but and then as as a principal, I was just fortunate to work with three different school counseling directors and teams, and really started to see not just the the reactive value of a strong school counseling team. But the proactive value.

Eric
They were intentional about the things that they were doing. It really became an asset to the school had some time and middle school was fortunate to work with a team it was a smaller team because it was smaller middle school, but to work with them there. And a lot of what we did was small group counseling and advising students on what the next steps would be. Of course schedules at the high school level, but also how to be a good and productive student, study skills, and building habits that would have effect and impact them in high school.

Eric
You know, as I reflect on relationship with school counselors, I would probably reflect on that time at Wade Hampton as as sort of where we were doing it the best, right? I think I learned and grew as to what the school counselor really can do. And the value that they can add to the culture and climate of the school, of course, worked with two different directors while I was there, both were incredible in their own right. But it was really when we started to undertake that ramp process and look at, you know, how are we spending our time? And how might we make some small shifts and how we spend our time to move this thing forward, that we really started to, I think, have the most impact and the most success?

Lauren
Yeah, Iwant to ask you a question about something, you mentioned the shift from the reactive counseling to proactive counseling, where did you see like, what advantages did you see? Or how did that change the school or how we serve students? Like, from your perspective, are we shifted from reactive to proactive?

Eric
Yeah, great question. It, you know, I use that example of the small groups that we started at Wade Hampton, we had, I think there was a year there, where we had lots of students who had lost a parent, you know, and so they were, they were dealing with that. And so oftentimes, those kids are dealing with so much emotion that you might see them show up in the office for for other reasons, right, whether it’s just struggling to get through a class, or it’s showing up in some behavior issues. And the root of that problem wasn’t that they were a behavior problem, the root of the problem was that they were just really struggling with how to process these emotions, you know, as a teenage kid.

Eric
And so having that safe space for them to process those emotions in a group where they didn’t feel alone, right, man, I didn’t know that in the school of 1800 students, there’s six other people that are going through this as well. So now they’ve got a safe space for the positive adult role model to be able to process through those things. And so that proactive piece is now helping to benefit the students. And we’re not having to get to Oh, man, they’re, they’re not showing up to school or their grades are bad, or they’re a discipline problem, because they had that safe space to be able to process through those.

Lauren
Yeah. And then the counselor is actually doing real counseling. And so they’re feeling like they get to do their job. But the way you’re speaking right now is like, I know, people are gonna listen and say, Oh, wow, he like really understand school counselors, like the fact that you just described that means that, you were pretty involved, at least in being perceptive of what was going on. What do you think is something that other administrators I mean, it could be assistant principals or principals misunderstand about working with counselors?

Eric
Yeah, you know, it wasn’t easy. If I think back to going through that ramp process. And some of those conversations we had to have, right? It’s just, it’s not easy. Because you’re, as a principal, you’re looking at this entire umbrella of everything that has to get done in the building. And, and you know, that everybody has a job description. But everybody also does some things that are outside of that job description, right. And so, now we’re having these conversations where, you know, I’d like for you to take this piece off of us, so that we can do this piece.

Eric
It’s hard as a principal, because then I have to take that piece and put it on somebody else, right? I know if it’s testing, right? That’s the big one that always comes up when you’re talking to counselors, like I know, if I’m going to take this off, somebody’s got to absorb it. And it’s not really the way we’re structured in Greenville County, at least it’s not in anybody’s job description. So it’s going to get to go to that.

Eric
And so I think, number one, it starts with having great people, right, and I was fortunate throughout my years in school administration to have great school counselors, and great leadership in there that could help cast that vision for what this could be if we can get to this point, right. And so somebody that was able to help me see what this could look like, and how we might be able to move this forward.

Eric
So I think my advice to other principals, and really, it’s advice to school counselors as well is you have to be able to see what that vision is. But then the school counselor has to be able to clearly articulate that. And it works both ways, right? If if your school counselor is locked in their office and not out in the building and not showing you that impact, then it’s harder for the principal, to be able to visualize what might be in the small groups or, you know, classroom lessons that might be able to take place. But also as a principal, you just, at some point, kind of have to trust that right? Here’s, here’s the role. And here’s how it can add value. And so you kind of have to meet in the middle. And it’s not easy for anybody to navigate through. But I think we were able to do it successfully. And then, you know, on the on the back side, is where I really saw how impactful it was for our school.

Lauren
Well, you just really set up my next question for you. Like, how did you find the confidence to trust counselors for the role that they were intended to have? Because like you said, it’s like, we both have to meet in the middle but do you remember like what that conversation looked like? Like I kind of remember laying the foundation of like kind of asking you that like can we have testing taken off and I think I remember you saying as long as you do ramp and we win this award, like? So, how we cast that vision for you to say yes, but I remember being like, finally somebody is trusting us to carry out the things that like we really want to do that we know students will benefit from. So do you remember what that was like? Or how was it scary to release and reassign some of those duties?

Eric
Yeah, and I don’t know that it was a one shot, you know, hey, all of a sudden, we’re gonna do this. I think over over the period of my both assistant principal and principal career, I was able to work with some really highly qualified folks who just kept kind of peppering right, like, hey, you know, if we, if we didn’t have to do this, we can be involved in this. And then I think, I don’t remember the exact process of how we went through this. But at one point, we did that sort of time study, and to look at how are we spending our time currently. I think when the results of that came back, it was really sort of eye opening that man, we’re, we’re way off balance in terms of the things that they should be doing and what that should look like.

Eric
And again, it starts with great people. I mean, at weight in the high school, we had, I call it the Dream Team, you know, openly to my colleagues, right? I mean, we had all the pieces in place to be able to do that there was no one that I would when I looked at the team like, man, this isn’t going to work, because this particular person’s not not going to pull their weight. You know, I just knew that everybody was bought into being able to impact our students the right way and in the right roles. And so I just felt good about being able to do that.

Eric
So a lot of things along the way through my career, but then sort of the perfect alignment of the of the right people. So maybe another piece of advice for principals just in hiring. We always tried to take the philosophy that we want to hire up, right, let’s, let’s bring somebody in, that’s going to continue to push us in this manner. And we were fortunate we just, we just had some great people.

Lauren
Yeah, so it probably felt like, okay, if we’re gonna take this risk, it might as well be now because I feel like we have the people who I can trust to carry this out.

Eric
That’s exactly right. And in early in my career didn’t, you know, we had to shuffle some pieces around, and I think, absolutely you got to have the right people who I still when I tell this story a lot now that I’m I don’t supervise school counselors directly, but I supervise Elizabeth House who supervises our school counselors, or at least is over the school counseling group. So I tell this the story a lot, and I talked about that, and we have the right people to move that forward. But it’s a combination of those right people in the risk?

Lauren
Well, I’m going to jump ahead to something I was going to ask you later. But I had a question from somebody, a listener who said, if you’re a principal, what are you looking for when you’re hiring a school counselor? People always have that question, because usually the principal is the final say, or they’re the gatekeeper to getting an interview or something. Like maybe walk us through when you’re looking at a resume to filling a spot on a team? What kinds of things stand out to you to do or do not do in that process?

Eric
Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ll answer it kind of from the high school perspective, because that’s where I did I guess, the bulk of my hiring of school counselors, so much of it depended on kind of reflecting on your current team, right? And seeing Okay, is there is there a weakness, we’ve made this huge shift towards college and career readiness, not just in Greenville County, but across the country. And so, does everybody on your team understand that? Or is there maybe a blind spot with with understanding college and career readiness? Do we need to need to hire somebody specifically? Who could fill that role for us?

Eric
Or, you know, is it the developing quality instruction for students, so there’s a lot there about the team dynamics and making sure that you, you balance that out, I never, interestingly enough, harmony is in my top five for strengths finders, and you guys used to make fun of me about that. But I never when I was looking to fill out a team, I was never looking to necessarily just bring in kind of harmony in that, right. I wanted to find somebody who was willing to push the team forward. And also vocal enough, especially in a strong team of established folks, vocal enough to be able to express their opinions and ideas when they saw an area that it might be, you know, an area of growth, but also understood, here’s why I am in this role. And I am a member of the team. And so five folks tell me that this is, you know, the way we’re going to do things and I can accept that and we can move forward.

Eric
I think it’s important to have both your school counseling director and other members of the school counseling team as a part of those interviews and get their input and their feedback, just to make sure you know, to have that set of eyes, I think is important as well.

Lauren
I think that you said something that I don’t know if you and I had talked about before, but I really thought the same thing of and maybe just as an encouragement to someone going through this process, like just because you didn’t get the job or you didn’t get the interview does not mean you’re not a good school counselor. It might not be you’re not the right fit for that team right now. Like we would look at where do we have a gap? Like do we need someone who is going to come in and be the leader because we’re trying to replace a really strong leader or do we need someone to like, is really going to be a team player to get on board and say, Yes, I’m bringing my strengths. But I can move and do whatever you need me to do.

Lauren
Like, there are certain personality traits or even leadership qualities that you might be looking for during a certain season, when you’re trying to replace a certain type of person, when you see that there’s a gap in your program. I’d say like maybe as like an encouragement to people, it might not be anything that you have done wrong, it just might not be you’re not the right fit for that department at that time.

Eric
That’s absolutely right. And we saw it, we, over the course of interviews brought through some exceptional candidates who we opted to go a different direction for that very reseaon, just simply, in terms of the makeup of the team. It wasn’t what we needed.

Lauren
Yeah, and even in terms of like years of experience, like, we might not have anyone right out of grad school, and we might need some new blood new energy with new ideas right from there, or we might need a more veteran person, this time as we’re filling a role. So it’s just it’s interesting. And I think people get down really easily on themselves, when they go through interview after interview, it’s like, it might not be anything that you did wrong in the interview, you might have had a great interview, but there might have been a lot of other candidates with great interviews that it was just somebody else during that season.

Eric
That’s right. And I would say don’t be afraid to ask for feedback. If it doesn’t go the way you want it to go. I think most principals are always willing to kind of give that feedback. And sometimes there’s there’s constructive feedback, or is there something you need to change about the interview, which we had a few of those too? But oftentimes, it’s nothing that you did, it’s just a matter of fit.

Lauren
Did you find that people usually ask for feedback? Or is that kind of rare?

Eric
I think it’s very rare. You know, let’s say of 10 folks that you interview, you might get one or two that would follow up and ask for feedback. It’s not you know, it’s, it’s not easy. It’s sometimes awkward, you know, to have those conversations, but why especially if you’re trying to get your foot in the door, great place to get that feedback. Can you just tell me why? What was the rationale for the decision? If you’re willing to listen, most people are willing to share.

Lauren
That’s good advice. What advice would you give to a school counselor who’s trying to shift or change the way that their role is currently being viewed in their building like, maybe they’re farther back on that, like, reactive school counseling side? Or maybe they’re new to a team where we’re doing things the way we’ve always done it? Like, how, how do they shift or change that in their building?

Eric
Yeah, I think you have to find ways to plug in and add value that are in the roles that you want to create, right. And so, taking that risk to do some small group counseling, or taking that risk to just be out in the cafeteria, mingling with students and stopping students going by their classrooms, I think that visibility piece is just huge, you get to kind of, for lack of a better word, prove the value that you can bring to the organization. And I think once that starts to happen, that snowball starts rolling.

Eric
And then you go and you ask, you make an ask, right. And so you find that pinnacle of all right, we just got celebrated for this particular thing that we’ve done. And, you know, we did a group with first generation college students, and five of the six are off to college, you know, so let’s, can we highlight this on social media? You were always great about that, but and then it’s like, okay, hey, if I had time, we could do more of that, right. You know, highlight those things, those areas where you’re being successful, and then trying to leverage that as sort of a strategy, but I think it’s, it gotten used on me, and I think it works.

Lauren
Kind of like, put yourself in the way like, don’t make the principal ask, Well, what have you been doing? Or like, there shouldn’t be any question. It should be like, This is so obvious. If I had more time, I could do more of this.

Eric
Absolutely. And, that’s, you know, I’ll just be 100% honest about what I hear from principals. It’s like, you know, we’ll say we’re trying to take this off of school counselors, and they’ll say, but they’re in their office all the time, you know, and so and I think that’s the rare exception these days. So there’s not a lot but that one or two folks that do especially at the elementary level, where they only have one or two, it can be detrimental to everybody.

Lauren
And that’s the principal’s whole perception. It’s like, that’s the only counselor interaction they see it, and they’re like, what value are they bringing to this school or to these students?

Eric
That’s exactly right. So it’s so so important, not just for you and your individual location, but also sort of for the profession of school counseling to be out there. And to show this, this is what we’re supposed to do. And this is what we can do. And this is how it impacts our kids.

Lauren
You mentioned this before, but do you think counselors coming to you with data can be compelling? Like, what kind of role does data play in changing the mind of a principal?

Eric
Yeah, I think it is, especially in today’s world, right? I mean, everything that we do has a metric behind it, even school culture and climate, right. We have surveys for that, that, you know, I meet with my folks and they meet with their folks. So I think even data around culture, climate, grades, attendance, all of those things, it’s just really, really important. And so it’s an opportunity to plug in and to be able to show additional value.

Eric
And I mentioned that earlier, but that time analysis of time, you know, it was really powerful for me to see like, Okay, here’s an even kind of helped dispel some misperceptions of yes, this is a time where as the school counselors in their office has to be right, but, but this is what they’re doing right, which is value added to the organization at the school. So, not to say there’s never a place for that, but sort of putting that on on a timeline, and with percentages to show. And this is student time, and this is non students, you know, all those things, I think, are really valuable.

Lauren
Yeah, probably, even if you weren’t trying to sway someone or ask for anything, just to have that to say, I mean, even just for your own self awareness, as a counselor to say, okay, I’m spending too much time on paperwork, or I want to get out and be in the cafeteria and be visible or whatever, that’s probably helpful to do that.

Lauren
On the same conversation of kind of data numbers. Somebody asked me to ask you, what advice do you have for a counselor whose principal is fixated on grad rates? I know that that is, you know, huge in the high school world. And it’s like, I don’t blame a principal for being concerned with that, because we want to see our students graduate too. But the one who maybe is so focused on that, but they can’t see, yeah, any any of the other part of the picture.

Eric
Right. Right. And I think it’s a it’s certainly a balance. And I think there, everybody plays the game, right? Or you don’t get to be a high school principal for very long.

Lauren
Right.

Eric
I would take the approach on there that man, a high school diploma, the perspectives on life, right, with a high school diploma or without a high school diploma is pretty significant difference, right. And so, to a certain extent, we want to do everything within the confines of the system that we possibly can to get that student to that first benchmark place where they have that high school diploma.

Eric
Now, I’m not in favor of playing the games or, you know, doing anything unethical. But it can be a huge difference maker, even to the point of, you know, trying to get into a two year college or trying to do a quick jobs program or certificate program. Without that, then they have to go back and make that step. And so typically, those kids that we’re looking at, tend to be, you know, six to two credits away, right. And so, it is this pretty intense push. But I like to go back to the student side of that to say, what, what is the difference that this is going to make and the students live?

Lauren
I think that’s a really healthy perspective, because, like you said, if you are on either end of that spectrum, you might not last very long. Because if you’re totally fixated on grad rates, then you kind of miss the student side and those stories that you know, of what the students are going through to get across the stage. And on the other hand, if you are not concerned with grad rate at all, you’re probably not going to have a job there for very long.

Eric
Right.

Lauren
So that’s something I always appreciated about you is that you like knew the student stories, or you would ask questions about as much as we can share as a counselor like, what is that student going through? Or like, what do I need to be aware of, when I’m also looking at these numbers, it wasn’t just as hard and fast graduation rate is the most important thing. But when we are concerned with the relational aspect, and the social emotional piece, like most of the time, that’s that’s the thing that is holding that student back from getting that diploma, there are a lot of other things going on. And so I think that partnership between the principal and the counselor is so valuable in that graduation rate piece that I mean, it should be something that we’re all concerned about, for that reason of setting them up for success when they launch out of high school.

Eric
Right. And it goes back to I mean, all those conversations tied together, right? It goes back to the school counselors playing truly playing that role and not the testing coordinator or the 504 coordinator, they’re truly playing that role, then you have an advantage to be able to have that conversation with that student and help that student work through that when oftentimes the school administrator can’t, right.

Eric
And so again, it’s that mutually beneficial. Like, hey, Lauren, could you go talk to this kid because I’ve said my my schpeel and it’s not it didn’t resonate at all, and they’re telling me they’re not coming back, right. And so then that school counselor can come alongside has a different level of relationship because we’ve cleared out some of those other meaningless things, and they’re able to have more of an impact and it resonates with that kid.

Lauren
I love that. You mentioned setting them up for success after high school with like career readiness. I know that a lot of your current role. What are some ways right now that you’re seeing counselors elevate career readiness for their students? Are there trends that we should be aware of or thinking creatively about right now?

Eric
Yeah, I’m so glad you asked that. We’re at a really interesting time, especially in our region where jobs are plentiful and high paying jobs and so what we’re we’re still trying to shift this mentality that the the four year college option is sort of the be all end all of pathways for a student and so our school counselors I feel like I’ve really grasped this vision that there are multiple ways for students to get to their their final destination. And that final destination may be a career that requires a four year degree or an advanced degree. But what we’re seeing starting to pop up because our companies are desperate for workers are these sort of nonlinear paths, right.

Eric
For example, a kid would be accepted into the Rising Scholars Program at BMW. And they would do that. And while they’re earning a living and earning their associate’s degree, latch on with BMW who was willing to pay for their four year degree, as well, you know, provide some expenses and keep them employed. And so the ultimate goal is they want to the student wants to be an engineer, and they get to that engineering pathway, they didn’t just walk across the stage, you know, go straight to a university, get their four years and then go into that pathway.

Eric
And so just helping students know and understand we’re seeing that this generation is a little bit debt averse, right? They saw their parents struggle with student loan debt for a long time, and just trying to pay that back. And so they’re great kids, and they’re looking for alternate ways for them to be able to accomplish this goal. From our research, or anyway, from things I’ve read, they seem to be more interested in experiences, and what life will will look like as opposed to a particular career pathway or a particular wage. So they’re looking for kind of some some flexibility in their options. And I think that has trickled down all the way into what do I do right after high school.

Eric
So that’s one side, I think counselors can help students understand that, you know, the days of having, you know, 80% of your students go into a four year college, and I just don’t know that we need that, or we want that, right. But we have these structures that celebrate that. And so let’s think about, not necessarily we don’t celebrate the academic success as much, but you know, when we we have the valedictorian in the salutatory, stand up at graduation, I think that’s great. Well, let’s all let’s also have our CTE completers stand up and be recognized, right, and maybe one of those gets to tell their story as well. So I think that’s really important.

Eric
The other thing, I think, where the school counselor plays a huge role is helping a student take one step towards that next destination, while they’re still in high school. You have this time where they’re shepherded, and they’re counseled, and they’ve got a little bit of a safety net. So you know, if they, maybe this kid doesn’t appear to be a student that’s headed to the higher education, but we really think they’ve got the academic potential to take English I or to take AP Lit or AP Lang right, now’s a great time to do that.

Eric
So what we’re seeing these kids that will kind of get pushed up into these are being successful because they’ve gotten those support systems while they’re in high school. And then they have this confidence about them that man, absolutely, I can go to a tech school, or absolutely, I can go to a four year school, I just, I just made an A or a B and English 101, or English 102, or I just made a four on that AP exam. And so I can do this. So we’re seeing it kind of changes their mentality.

Eric
Same is true for certifications, right? And so, you know, we’re having students get welding certifications in multiple areas of welding, certainly, they can always graduate from high school and enter a welding program at a two year Technical College, they certainly could do that. But to have that boost of confidence in that competitive advantage, while they’re still in high school, while they still have those supports, can be life changing for some of these kids, and then then they matriculate into that to your school. Or sometimes they go and say, hey, I want to I want to get a business degree because I don’t want to, I don’t want to weld for my whole life. I might use it as a means to an end. But I want to business where I can employ well, there’s, I can make some money.

Eric
So just helping students, know and understand the importance of that whatever that we call it a competitive advantage, right? Graduation is the baseline we want everybody to graduate. But what is that? What are those one or two things that might set you apart? It could be college credit, it could be certification. So helping those students get to that point, by the time they graduate. We always do a good job of that with our high fliers, right. But there’s this base of kids that are just just in the middle. And it takes somebody and oftentimes that’s the school counselor to push them up to encourage them to take a little bit of a risk while they’re in high school to get if they’ve got that relationship. Oftentimes they’ll listen to that school counselor more than mom and dad or more than an assistant principal.

Lauren
Definitely. And I think that, like you said, the importance of building that confidence, whether it’s academic or career readiness, like every student can find something like if they are pushed just a little bit more or in that individual planning meeting, when the counselor knows some of the students interests and can say hey, there’s this apprenticeship opportunity and then you start seeing ears like perk up like from the parents who don’t want their student to go into debt from the student who wants to have the experience and as a counselor, you just get to be the provider of that information. And sometimes that is life changing for a student to have that confidence built right there in high school.

Lauren
And then I think also from like a parent perspective, like you kind of said, What do you want your child if they’re going to fail to fail in your home, like under your care and same thing as an educator like, if they’re going to not enjoy this thing I’d rather than figure it out now, while they’re saving some time and money, because I think there’s just as much value in trying one of those things and being like, yeah, this isn’t for me, before I go out of state to that really expensive welding program, or invest in the cosmetology license for years, and then realize, like, Hey, I don’t really like this. But if you can do it for a year or two in high school, get the elective credits and still use it towards graduation. Like it’s not wasted time.

Eric
Yeah, we talked about college being the most expensive time to do career exploration, right, that’s not what we want to do, we want to push that back to the middle school in high school, give them opportunities. And if all you’re doing is watching a PowerPoint about career exploration, that’s not helpful, you got to give them opportunities to get their hands dirty, and to go in and to try it.

Eric
Likewise, with with college, right? I mean, take this college class, you might decide colleges is also not for you, and you want to direct your path to you know, one of those technical skills areas. And so again, that’s his, okay, we’ve got to as a parent, right, and you’ll see this when your kids get older, like, I have kids, but a couple of kids who I’m not sure that that four year college route is going to be where they end up straight out of high school. I think ultimately, that will but you know, we we’ve got to get past at the pool in the summer, when you know, we’re a little bit ashamed to tell our neighbors that’s they’re not going to college right away, they’re doing something other than college. And so it’s we still have this stigma in our society of, oh, they couldn’t get into the college, or why are they doing that? Right? Well, they’re doing that because that’s what they chose to do. And we really think they’re going to be successful. So helping all of us get get past that, I think is just sort of a continued and ongoing challenge for all educators.

Eric
We’re it is a huge boat, right, and we are slowly turning that ship to see folks recognize this. And then on the flip side, when those kids are successful, we got to celebrate that we got to get that out every possible way. News stories, social media, you know, just to be able to help people understand that boy, there are really some tremendous opportunities out there for students, regardless of the pathway they want to take.

Lauren
Totally. And I think even in 10 years, there has been a huge shift, like you said, I kind of remember the beginning of my school counseling career, those numbers on 80% of our students go to four year college, like that was a big selling point for your high school. And that’s not what we’re celebrating anymore. We shouldn’t be celebrating that if anything.

Lauren
The best thing for a kid is to go do the right fit thing for them. Because I mean, who wants to go to college and then decide that they want to go into, you know, building construction, and it’s more hands on and all they needed was a two year degree like where they didn’t have to spend that much money to do it. That is an expensive way to figure that out, like you said,

Eric
And simple things you can I mean, you remember the award ceremony right at the end of the year for all grade levels, and you look around and you call them the same kids names over and over. Right? But But where are those kids who are choosing to do something different? Are they represented not to say we don’t celebrate those academic successes, it is vital to do. But where are those kids that are maybe doing something else? Can we celebrate them, as well, just as little things I think that we can do to continue to change the culture?

Lauren
Yeah, that happens in the school building. Like you said, I had an episode that just aired of the podcast about your senior decision day. You know, senior decision day, even that language, changing it from college decision day, it’s like we can celebrate enrollment, enlistment, employment, and make it a big deal for everyone, no matter what they’re going to do. And that encourages the student just not to walk across the stage with no plans. It’s like, let’s pick one of those. And let’s have a plan for what you’re going to do next. And even just that language, that like changing the language, and then really realizing that all of it can be a celebration will really elevate those students and then even the younger students to be able to be a part of that culture in the school and say, Oh, they’re celebrating no matter which pathway they’re choosing, and like that could be me, they could really see themselves in that.

Eric
I love it.

Lauren
When you set out to the district office from being a principal in a school, what experiences from the school level, did you hope to bring with you in terms of relating to school counselors, like what did you learn working with school counselors that you wanted to take with you when you went to the district level?

Eric
You know, it’s one of those things that I try as a district level leader now to keep in front of me all the time. Like, let’s remember what it was like, right. And I think like one of the major issues we have here and I’m sure everywhere is the further you get away from that, the less you remember the challenges of being in the school and so, a couple of things specific to school counselors and a lot of it goes back to the earlier conversation, just how impactful they can be because of the unique position, it is a non, obviously, you’re adults, and you have some supervisory roles over students, but is a non authoritative role with that student, right? It is very much kind of coming alongside and helping and providing counsel.

Eric
So helping folks here to understand that that’s an important piece. I can’t, you know, have the authority currently to change the roles, all the roles that we assigned, but helping even our assistant superintendents who directly supervise the principals understand and know that, here’s what we can do to help with that problem from the school counseling side, having a lot of conversations about student wellness, mental health, right now. And so you know, there’s a fine balance there.

Eric
We have a mental health counselor in each one of our schools. And we also have a school counseling team. And so looking at our hear all the things sort of post COVID that we’re seeing with our students now, and here’s where they’re struggling. And so which one of those things fall in that school counseling realm that we can impact in? Which which of those are in the mental health aspect? And how do we distinguish between those because sometimes those lines are really blurred. And so we’re just, we’re having a lot of conversations, I’m sure across the country, people are having those conversations, but helping to provide that sweet spot where we can get a highest amount of value from our school counselors.

Eric
You know we’re doing a lot in Greenville County around ratios, right? What is what is that most effective ratio? Of course, we would always say, and I’m sure most of your listeners would say, the lower the lower the better. Right. And that’s, that is true in terms of impacting students. But I think now I’m afforded to have this big picture of, okay, we have all these things, and all of them are good for students. But here’s the pot. And we can, we can only do so many. And so if we have to choose between bringing that ratio down at the high school level versus the elementary level, that’s an unfortunate choice, but it’s just the reality of a fixed budget, right? Where do we go first. And then where might we try to go second, and third.

Eric
So just helping to provide input into those conversations, and at the district level has been neat for me. And I think I’ve got a lot of really good experiences to draw on, because I’ve seen it work really well and seeing the impact that it can have on the school. So just being able to share those, it’s been fun.

Lauren
It’s really encouraging to me that you’re also doing the advocacy work on behalf of counselors, like you had a great experience and a meaningful experience working with a great team that you could take that and share those experiences, like you said, with people who are even farther removed, like, I’m sure that you start feeling farther removed, the more you’re out of it, but you had a great experience that it’s like in your memory that you want to share with other people who may not have even had that experience.

Lauren
Like, I always think about advocacy in the school for the counselor as being important because you might be working with a principal who their only perspective is their experience with their own school counselor in high school, who they didn’t even know. And so like, you might be the one who changes a principals mind about what school counselors roles can be and should be in the school.

Eric
Absolutely. And that’s how an organization like ours with 77,000 students, that’s how that organizational change takes place is that, that building the momentum of those those experiences that people have, and then their willingness to kind of go forward and share that.

Lauren
And Iwould hope that this would be an encouragement to someone who maybe doesn’t feel seen or heard in their building that like every relationship that they have in the school can be a moment to impact somebody’s perception of school counselors, and what they do, like the teachers perceptions might need to change, the APS, the, you know, even front desk and like office clerks, like everybody is looking at you to be a leader in the school. And you really have an opportunity to do that, whether you’re a solo counselor in a rural area with no other counselors in your district, or you’re part of a really big team. Like you and your role, still, you have an opportunity to make an impact even with the other adults in your building, not just on students.

Eric
Yeah, I think I think that’s great. And then you never know, right? That somebody has an assistant principal, the Director of School Counseling at Riverside High School, like really sort of took me under her wing and showed me this is what we do. And this is how we do it, and you carry that forward with you. And now I’m in a position where I can advocate so even that assistant principal, or that teacher that you might be working with and supporting absolutely impacts the kids and that’s goal number one, but that person might have an opportunity at some point in their career to be doing a podcast or to be doing a you know, to be at a district level position or, you know, maybe that person someday is the superintendent and they’re offering you know, big picture thing. So you never know, I think that’s great.

Lauren
Okay, the last kind of big thing I want to ask you about is something that you mentioned to me the collaboration with Clemson. I mean, people are listening to this like all over the country but Clemson is our probably most popular four year college closest to us that all the students want to go to. But you have a grant Are you like working? Tell me about this. You mentioned it, but I want to hear more.

Eric
We’re so excited. And Elizabeth House who’s our Director of School Counseling, it really, she brought it forward to the table, we’ve all kind of pitched in and worked on it. But she’s kind of been the brainchild behind it. What we see, and I’m sure this is a common problem across the country is teachers in our building, who have an interest in school counseling, because they’ve seen that impact. But currently, the way our system is set up, you would have to leave your teaching position, you’d have to go back to school for two years, and then come back after that, well, there aren’t a lot of folks that can afford to do that. Right. So what we’re seeing the majority of our school counselors are folks that have gone straight through their four year then went and got their master’s degree afterwards. And they’re coming in and those folks can be great. And they’ve been a huge asset to our system. But that teacher oftentimes will bring a unique perspective.

Eric
And so in partnership with the federal Department of Education, we were awarded a $6 million grant, really aimed at increasing non traditional participation in school counseling. So our minority candidates, males, specifically at the elementary level, and then school counselors who are willing to live in and invest in the community that they that they serve, especially in our high poverty schools. And so it’s targeted at that it will serve many more, but we’ll have a 12 Counselor cohort that will go through this. And so the folks that are that are applying are sometimes in aid or you know, other support staff positions in our schools, or they’re in teaching positions.

Eric
And it’s an opportunity to pay them a full teaching salary for two years, the first year they stay in their current position. So let’s say you had a school counseling clerk, for example, who had just worked with the school counselors for four years and thought, Man, this is really something I’d like to get into, they stay in that position, they receive a teaching salary, they go to school at Clemson University, the second year, they’re placed in a practicum setting, continue to receive full teacher salary, that master’s level, receive that salary and work as a school counselor, but in that kind of practicum type setting. And so they wouldn’t have their own caseload, but they would still be working with a member of a team. And then upon graduation, they’ll work with Greenville County for for three years.

Eric
So it is really an all expenses paid tuition and salary opportunity for them to not have to, you know, leave their current position and go back to school. So 12 counselors a year, over the course of three years, again, we’re just we’re just really excited. And so I would encourage folks, obviously, if you’re in the area with we’d love to have you we need we need folks applying for those positions, but it’s a federal grant. And we were successful by partnering with our university and going after this, and so happy to talk with anybody that might want to want to talk through that process and how we went after it. But that key university partnership, I think was was huge for us. But applying for that federal money was important.

Eric
It also extends the mental health counselors, and we talked earlier about that blend between school counselors and mental health. And so there’s some ability there for us that continues to be a challenging position to fill. But, you know, we’re saying specifically, for whatever reasons specifically for us at the elementary level, it is it is hard for us to find school counselors, specifically school counselors who are in that non traditional demographic, whether those are minorities or males. And so we hope this will be a game changer for us as we move forward.

Lauren
That sounds awesome. I really would have liked to have been paid a salary while I was doing it instead of coming out with all the debt that I have.

Eric
Absolutely, absolutely.

Lauren
If I could go back and do it again. I would make money doing it for sure.

Eric
Absolutely. I mean, great. It’s just a great opportunity. Even you know, as an administrator we have I have not seen anything like it. Now it’s gonna be hard it is it will not be for the faint of heart, you think about a full time job. And essentially, you know, full time grad school at the same time, it will certainly be a challenge. But, you know, I just think it’s a great opportunity.

Lauren
Yeah, but lots of support around them, you know if that is something that they want to transition to, and how cool because they have hopefully seen the impact that a counselor can have in their building, whether they’re a teacher or an aide or a clerk. I love that example of like your registrar, your clerk working in your office who gets to see the impact that counselors have who says who start saying, Oh, that could be something that I could do, or I’ve always wanted to do that. But I didn’t have I haven’t had the time or haven’t had the money to go to school to do it.

Eric
Right. Absolutely.

Lauren
Awesome. I think those are all of my questions that I have for you. Is there anything we didn’t talk about that you wanted to add?

Eric
I just be curious, from your perspective, or maybe a listener, you know, in this district office role, you mentioned the apprenticeships and the different things. We have lots of opportunities for things like that. And so in a system this size, it can be a challenge sometimes to get those opportunities in front of our school counselors so that when they’re in that IGP meeting, and that student says, I want to be an engineer, they remember okay, this this apprenticeship was over here is, in terms of communication coming from a central office and a large system, you have any suggestions or any, any ways that that can be more effective and efficient?

Lauren
Yeah, it’s hard because I often say that counselors probably didn’t sign up for this. But they end up being like the PR managers, like, we have so many things coming at us in terms of like opportunities for students that we want to share out there. And so it’s managing being like the one person who receives all that information, being responsible for disseminating it out to 1800 students and their parents. And it feels like if we don’t do that, well, then like, students slip through the cracks that they don’t know about some sort of opportunity. So it’s like, how much capacity do I have for learning all the things but I feel like as a counselor, if you immerse yourself in that, and you’re willing to learn about it, like, you know, maybe it is going to a regional conference where you get to hear from career readiness, speakers, or opportunities, or it’s leaving your campus to go to the district meeting that like, maybe you have a lot going on, or you don’t want to go. But if you go, you get to hear about those things.

Lauren
I think it takes a willingness from the counselor to put themselves in a place where they are continually learning because those opportunities change all the time, maybe their timestamp, like a student has to apply by this day. And then also being able to follow through with that maybe in creative ways, not just individual meetings, because I mean, that’s part of it. But not being afraid to jump into social media to share it or tapping somebody else in the school who is more equipped to do that, like, you don’t have to do it all as a counselor, but you are kind of like the in between piece to gather that information from the district office. But then to get it out to your students. And like, you don’t have to do that on your own. You can use the other people on your team or in your building to help you do that.

Lauren
So I think, maybe just counselors being open to continually learning because those resources are changing, the opportunities are changing. So I don’t know that I have advice for you on like how to get counselors to do that. But just like if they would stay open minded to hearing about it and not being like, Oh, one more email. There are ways that they can filter those emails, I tell them, like you could send all of your career readiness emails for Mr. Williams to you know, one folder, and then check in with it once a week if like, when you feel like you have the capacity to read them. It’s not. You don’t have to get like annoyed by the communication. You can like figure out ways that work for you to read it and understand it and put it out there.

Eric
Yeah, it’s really helpful. It’s a it’s a challenge that I think, you know, just to get information to our schools. And so and we know that the school counselor is a key piece of that. So appreciate that insight. For sure.

Lauren
Yeah, I liked hearing when a principal would do this, and even district communication, when it would come almost in like a newsletter form. Like I would know, I’m gonna get this once a week, and it’s gonna have all the opportunities in it so that it wasn’t constant. I know some administrators love sending like, the staff emails to everyone all the time where like that feels most convenient, it feels like it does require more planning to put stuff together everything going on this week and send it out. But that’s also a more organized way to receive the information to know hey, if I miss that I can go back that’s where it is, and not in some like random email. So feel like that. The way it’s organized. When it comes to the counselors, that’s also really helpful, too.

Eric
Yeah, we’ve explored that that hub kind of concept of alright, maybe we take all the College and Career Readiness opportunities, and we put them in one place. And so and if we do it by cluster, you know, maybe that matches up to that IGP meeting. And so you can clip and pace to that particular student who might be interested in engineering.

Lauren
Yeah, it requires trial and error. And I guess, both sides because you might create the whole thing, and then they don’t use it or you know, vice versa.

Eric
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.

Lauren
Well, thank you so much. I feel like you’ve answered so many of our questions, and listeners are going to be excited about hearing this episode.

Eric
It was fun for me, I appreciate the opportunity.

Lauren
I will link that Clemson Grant in the show notes here and get your contact information if people have any questions about it. But thank you for being on this episode.

Eric
It was great. Thanks, Lauren.

Lauren
I hope you enjoyed listening to that episode. As much as I enjoyed recording that episode. I think that Eric has a lot of value to add to a conversation with high school counselors from his time as a teacher, principal, and now a district liaison, I would say at the district level, he brings a lot of passion and advocacy to the school counselor role, even though he was never a school counselor. So I hope that you enjoyed that.

Lauren
I’ll link some relevant podcast episodes and blog post in the show notes if you want to check those out. Kind of related to our conversation today. I’ll also link that community collaboration with Clemson grant in case anyone is kind of local and interested in learning more about that or pursuing that. I will also share his contact information so if you have any other questions for Mr. Williams that you could reach out to him and ask him yourself. Thanks for being here for another episode of high school counseling conversations and I’ll see you next week.

Lauren
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of High School Counseling Conversations. All the links I talked about today can be found in the show notes and also at counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode. Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me a DM @counselorclique that’s c l i q u e. I’ll see you next week.