From Hunting for Prestige to a Values-Driven College Search with Jared Epler and Jen Vallieres [Episode 159]

Lauren 0:00
Hey friends, let me address the elephant in the room. I’ve been sick and I’m trying to get over it, but if you can hang on through this episode, then I promise we’ll get through it together, and hopefully I’ll be good as new for the future. Let me first start by introducing our two guests for today. Jared is a public high school counselor, adjunct counseling faculty and co founder of Forget the Rankings, the values driven college search. As both a school counselor and licensed therapist, he understands the impact that the college search can have on the mental health of our teens. Forget the Rankings aims to change the narrative surrounding the college search, to focus on each student’s values rather than prestige.

Lauren 0:39
Now let me introduce you to Jen. Jen is a school counselor, therapist, and teacher who brings over 15 years of experience supporting students through their educational journeys. Witnessing firsthand the mounting mental health crisis fueled by rankings-driven college admissions, she co founded forget the rankings to transform how students and families navigate this process. Drawing from her background in cultural anthropology and extensive work across K-12 education, she emphasizes personal values and authentic fit over prestige.

Lauren 1:09
The three of us had a really great conversation about the college search landscape and the effects that this pressure cooker is having on students’ mental health. By the time they get to the end of their high school careers, students feel like they’re living in this world of competition after watching each other apply to colleges and sharing who got into where and who applied where. The whole thing just gets blown out of proportion, and high school counselors have a front seat to watching it all unfold. Jen and Jared were really, quite frankly, tired of watching the same conversations happen over and over again in front of them, between students and parents, that they just knew that they had to do something about it. So listen in as you hear about what they’re doing in their school to combat the mental health epidemic as it pertains to the college search process and college applications.

Lauren 2:01
You got into this profession to make a difference in your students lives, but you’re spread thin by all the things that keep getting added to your to do list. I can’t create more hours in the day, but I can invite you into my Counselor Clique where you’ll finally catch your breath. Come with me as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that’ll help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your students. I’m Lauren Tingle, your high school counseling hype girl, here to help you energize your school counseling program and remind you of how much you love your job.

Lauren 2:33
Hey guys, Jen and Jared, thank you for being on the podcast. I’m excited to talk about college searching and mental health and values-driven searching. You all have a great topic that you kind of brought to the podcast, and I think it’s definitely worth talking about. So welcome to the show.

Jared 2:48
Thanks for having us.

Jen 2:48
Thank you.

Lauren 2:49
Yeah, let’s jump right in. I kind of am curious about the two of y’all experiences kind of growing up and searching for college yourself. Like, what did that process look like for you? Because I know everyone kind of has their own origin story. It’s probably shaping what you’re doing now.

Jared 3:05
Yeah, our stories look really different, but I think both of them, like really lend well to what we’re doing now. So I grew up in very rural Pennsylvania, like town with one traffic light, kind of place.

Lauren 3:17
Love it.

Jared 3:18
Yeah, where most people didn’t go to college. Like it was a farming community. A lot of people, like, stayed and worked on the farm. Maybe 30% of my graduating class went off to college. And there were like 120 of us. And I won’t forget being in my school counselor’s office and saying, like, I think I really want, like, a small college, you know, I want to go somewhere that maybe a lot of people from our high school don’t go. And I remember him saying, like, oh, you should put Penn State on your college list. And I was like, there’s like, 40,000 students.

Lauren 3:46
Like, is that, am I misunderstanding here?

Jared 3:50
And I said the opposite of that. And just remember feeling like, oh, okay, like, I’m gonna do this alone. And was lucky that I had, like, an older brother who ended up at a small, private liberal arts college, and I knew that that’s the experience that I wanted. But, like, no support from high school at all, and I ended up at Albright College in Redding, Pennsylvania, that no one from my high school had gone there or was there. But yeah, like, it was just not a college going culture, not a lot of support. Lucky to have a family that was supportive, and I kind of, we figured it out as we went.

Jen 4:22
My experience was different than that. I had more of an experience similar to the school where Jared and I work, a suburban high school outside Philadelphia, very much a college going culture, so much so that there was definitely the right schools to get into and the wrong schools to get into. And of course, this was like pre social media days, but we, Jared and I have talked about this before, we had a bulletin board at our high school, and, like, the big thing was to put your name up with where you were going, in your college colors. And it was hard, because, like, it, you know, when early decision rolled around, you saw students with the fancy schools being pinned up there, and you felt certain ways if you weren’t up there, or if it wasn’t the right type of school.

Jen 5:05
And that was definitely my experience. Despite getting a lot of guidance from my counselor, she was wonderful, but it was very much like what I think most counselors today still do when engaging with the college search process. And there wasn’t a whole lot of emphasis on, like, how are you doing with it, or who are you, which we’re going to get to later. But it was hard seeing your friends get into the right schools. Excuse me doing air quotes, but I’m doing air quotes everybody ,the right schools. And me not feeling like my school was one of the right schools, which is just so different from Jared’s experience, because I went to Bucknell and my friends were going to Ivy League schools. So it wasn’t the same tier, again air quotes, of schools, and it made the process really stressful and definitely impacted my view on like, who I was as a person, not able to like, reach that top tier school as society deems it.

Lauren 6:01
Yeah, and that’s so interesting that your set of rankings at your school was different than your set, Jared, like, so different, but everybody had this invisible list in their mind, or that their teachers were saying, or their parents or their counselors of like, this is the good one. This is where you should—don’t even put that up on the bulletin board because you’d be embarrassed that you even got in. What? No! But like, that’s a real feeling. I’m sure that people in your grade were feeling as they were applying to college.

Jen 6:30
For sure, and it still exists today. And I think, at least from my experience, the list hasn’t changed that much.

Jared 6:36
Yeah, we’re talking about the same places.

Lauren 6:39
And they’re not listening to us right now, do you think that those come from big, just the college ranking kind of, Newsweek, World Report, like, those kinds of number one party school number one for this? Like, that’s where we get that from? I think that’s where I got it from when I was in high school without social media.

Jared 6:57
Yeah. And I think it’s like, there’s like, a reputation piece to that, right? Like, so highly ranked, you’re talked about a lot, right? What parents are talking about at soccer practice, and, you know, in the morning with their coffee, like, we just keep speaking these same names over and over, and it just like, takes hold. It’s like, the sweatshirt schools, we often call them. Like, name a school to a parent, they’re like, well, we’ve never heard of that, and it’s like, but it’s such a wonderful place. But if it’s not like in their…

Lauren 7:25
Vernacular, in their world where they’re talking about it, then it’s, it’s nothing.

Jared 7:29
Right, if my neighbor is not going to be like, Oh wow, when I say that school, like, I want the oh wow, from the person at the grocery store, that I want my kid to go to.

Lauren 7:39
Well, and that kind of leads into my next question is, what kind of trends are you seeing right now today? Like you’re in the schools, y’all work together?

Jared 7:46
Yes.

Lauren 7:46
Same department. So, I mean, you could speak to the trends at your school, or even maybe just as a whole, what are you seeing in the college search process with our students right now?

Jen 7:55
It is a push for many of our students to the same name schools that we were still talking about 20, 30 years ago. And I think, I think you hit the nail on the head that it, it’s coming from the rankings, but it’s also coming from the culture that the rankings have established. So you know, even if you go on and your family that’s thinking like, Okay, we want a hidden gem school, we’re ready to think outside the box and find something that’s off the beaten path. And you throw that into Google, hidden gem schools that value activism, the same schools come up, right? Like Google can’t even produce for you those other names. And they exist, though. It’s crazy. Like they are out there.

Jared 8:35
There’s just not a great way to find them. And I think, too, the trend now has become like, I will apply to as many schools as possible that are hyper selective, to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. And like, when I think about a student who comes in our office and they’re like, I’m applying to all the Ivy’s, it’s like they’re so different. Like to be at Dartmouth versus to be at like Penn, they couldn’t be more different.

Lauren 8:57
And could you possibly fit in all those places? Do you want to go to all those places? No, you just want to say you got in, or whatever.

Jared 9:05
It’s like, hunting for prestige. And that’s where I find like now we have students who are, you know, tackling so many AP courses and the college search, but instead of applying to, like, eight to 10 schools, it’s 20, and they all have supplements. And it just, we create this, like pressure cooker, that students are already not mentally well when it comes to all of this, right? So we add all of this on top, and we, we’ve, I think, as a, as a country, as a culture of made students believe that, like, where you get in showcases your worth. And same for parents, right? I think a lot of parents are like, my worth as a parent is connected to the school that my student goes to. And I want other parents to think I’ve done a good job.

Lauren 9:46
Right. And you hear those stories like, early and earlier, like, I’m applying to this prestigious preschool so that my child can get into Harvard. Like, it starts so early, they’re already thinking about it.

Jared 9:57
And that’s what, I think you just like, mix all of that together and then you wonder, like, why are we seeing more students with mental health crises and, like, depression and anxiety? It’s like, Hello. Let’s pause for a minute and realize we’re making them feel like everything they do is to achieve an outcome, versus like, What about like, learning about something because you’re curious about it, or like, doing something fun in the summer, like working a part time job. That’s good. You don’t have to go do, like, research with a professor.

Lauren 10:26
Unless you’re interested in that, and it’s a passion and you want to learn about it, and you’re curious, like, no.

Jen 10:31
Yeah. It’s not for the growth, it’s the outcome, the potential outcome. And I think the saddest part about it, too, is the kids who, once they get in, like, will sit and reflect with us and be like, you know, I really, I never really got a chance to hang out with my friends. I remember one student a few years ago got in, felt a sense of relief, but then broke down in tears and was like, I never went and got, what did she say? Bubble tea. I never got a chance to go get bubble tea with my friends. And that was like the breaking point for her.It’s such a small thing.

Speaker 1 11:00
And you don’t want to see students get to the end and feel like that. So are y’all changing the narrative in your school in some way? Like, how do you fight against that as a school counselor?

Jen 11:10
So we hit a little bit, I think, of a breaking point. I’ll just tell the story of, like, how this philosophy came to be with us. So I had been in my umteenth team meeting where a student came in and said, I want to go to there’s an Ivy League school that’s in our neighborhood that they they love to say, this is where they want to go.

Lauren 11:28
So you got mad, you flipped a table and you said, I’m done with this.

Jen 11:31
Yeah, I flipped the table…

Lauren 11:33
And the student was like, No, but I like, really want to go there.

Jen 11:36
But I said, why? Right? Like, the question, How come? And they’re like, because it’s a good school. What makes it a good school? It just is, like, they can’t get past that, right? So into jared’s office, I marched down the hall, flipping tables as I go, I’m like, why are we not doing this differently? And and Jared and I are also both licensed therapists, So Jared had recently been talking about doing some career counseling for adults after school, and had been talking about a value sort. And so I said, Wouldn’t it be so cool if we could rethink our college meetings and we did it based on values?

Jared 12:07
So I looked at Jen, I was like, Wait, so you’re saying have a card sort, have values and connect, you know, the values to a list of schools. And Jen was like, Yeah. And I was like, we’re doing that. And Jen was like, no. But I was like, No, we’re doing that. So for a year, we’ve, like, built this really cool counseling tool, and we’re using it in meetings that is focused on that, right? The idea is, what if we forgot everything else and didn’t even make it about college for a second? And like, of this list of things, sort through these cards. What speaks to you? Is it creativity? Is it collaboration? Is it activism? Is it global citizenship? Is it great food, right?

Jared 12:42
And then from there, having conversations with students about, like, how does this show up in your life? How do you envision this showing up? Well, here’s 15 colleges that also really care about that thing, and now created this, like, new entry point, and the student has already selected, like, I love this thing. So it’s less awkward to like, then name a hidden gem school. It’s not like we’re pulling it out of, like, the most obscure place. We’ve done a lot of research. We’ve used our experience to be like, This aligns with who you are. And I think that students and families, even who are, like, very prestige focused, can’t just ignore that. There’s like, an innate, well, if I’m innately curious about this, like, I gotta see what schools are on this list.

Lauren 13:22
Like, if this is not a match, then, like, maybe I’m not being honest about my values.

Jared 13:26
Exactly. So we try, like, there’s a bulletin board in my office, don’t forget the hidden gems, and we rotate them out. But I think we really, it’s about like, cracking open your world view, right? I think beyond what you’ve heard all these years about this one school is like the epitome of success. And I think again, when the gateway in is then they read this really cool description of, you know, activism at Bennington College, there’s a course I can take this club is doing this, you begin to, like, see yourself there and a part of that community in a different way. And we see students get excited. And a big thing that we talk about, too, is we don’t believe in safety schools, right? I think there’s such a negative connotation of you have to have a backup option, and if you end up going there, that means you failed.

Lauren 14:08
There are so many schools out there that, like, can we just apply to all schools that we’d be good fits for, academically, socially, culturally?

Jared 14:16
So that’s why we say it’s about finding comfort schools.

Lauren 14:19
I love that language.

Jared 14:20
Schools that you would be excited to be admitted to, and you find something there for you. So it’s not that feeling of like, Oh, I I ended up going to my safety school because it’s the only place that I got in. It’s I feel so excited to go to a school that is aligned with me, and they really care about collaboration, and there are living learning communities. It just has reframed the whole conversation.

Jen 14:41
One of my favorite parts about the process that we’ve been experiencing is watching the student and the parent navigate that conversation. So last year, when we did it with a family, we have a student sort first, and the parent does it at tandem, at the same time.

Lauren 14:56
Yeah, I was gonna ask how this works. Is this like in an individual meeting, and you tell them they’re going to be doing this?

Jen 15:01
We haven’t warned them ahead of time.

Lauren 15:03
Okay, put them on the spot.

Jen 15:05
We put them on the spot, but we give the students a deck of cards, and then the parent, or whatever trusted adult is there with them, and we ask the students to share first, like their top three to five values, and then the parent goes next. And those responses have just been so fun to watch unfold. We’ve had families start chanting five for five, like they both picked. But we’ve also had…

Lauren 15:29
Zero for zero, no matches.

Jen 15:32
I don’t think I’ve had zero for zero. Even today, I did it today, there was one there was one aligning match, yeah. And the cool thing, like, even today, there was some discrepancies, but the parent and the student turned independently from me, because I’ve just facilitated the starting conversation and had a talk about, like, I didn’t know that you had pulled support. What does that mean to you? Like, I didn’t I didn’t know that that was important. We had it before with environmentalism. Yeah, that mom got very, in a good way, emotional. Like I had no idea. I can’t believe I’m walking out of here learning about a value that you think is like at your core identity that I didn’t know. And you’re 16, 17 years old. The gratitude that you can feel from parents walking out with this like disarmed conversation. Here is who my kid is, potentially at the core, and this is now going to shape our conversations moving forward, when we look at schools, has been just like, heartwarming and a privilege to watch.

Jared 16:29
And it makes it about self discovery. I think so often, like a, with our juniors, a junior college, meaning, feels so like, process, and who are your teacher recommenders, and what SAT score. And I felt like for moments, kids were leaving our office, and I’m like, they don’t know themselves any better. And now I feel like there’s this joy of just leaving that office being like, I feel like I have a focus now I never thought about values. This is important to me. So how do I use this as like a lens for the rest of my search. Or even for like, what am I going to do this summer, or what courses should I take as a senior? There’s this guiding principle.

Jared 17:02
And I just love the fact that I think that kids and families are leaving our offices like we know each other a little bit better. I know myself a little bit better, because I think that that’s what’s gotten lost in this. It should be about joy and growth and discovery and learning, and it’s just about this relentless push for excellence and like, I’m gonna take that AP course because I want six AP courses senior year to get into that school. And it’s like, but why didn’t you take a computer design course? Because you love creativity and beauty, and that means so much to you. You now don’t have that space in your life to, like, live your value and be yourself and care for yourself, and I think that’s part of the problem.

Lauren 17:40
Have you found a sweet spot for starting these conversations? Have you just kind of been doing it with juniors? Because that feels very timely, juniors and seniors, or are you starting earlier than that, so that they have time to explore those values a little bit more?

Jen 17:53
That is such a good question, because we have plans. But for now, we’ve been starting with juniors, but we’ve been also doing it with seniors as they’re trying to decide, like at least last year, what schools, which school might I want to pick from out of the ones I’ve been admitted to. We’ve revisited this. But our hope is this is going to start sooner for the students in our community, because I think some students can come into a junior meeting, right, and talk values. They’re ready, right? And one of the students that I had in my office recently, we do some probing questions too, because you can kind of get to see that look on their face and they’re like, I’m not really sure what you mean by core values. So we roll it back a little bit. And today, did some work on like, Okay, who do you who do you admire in your life? Like, what are you doing outside of school? What sparks joy for you? And that helps, but we would like to start those conversations sooner.

Jared 18:44
So building like, we’re working to build a pretty intentional like counseling curriculum at our school. Like, how do we plant the seed in ninth grade? And I will add not just stuff for students, like we do evening programs for parents, and we’re starting to infuse this now in sophomore year.

Lauren 18:59
Especially because you can see how meaningful of a conversation it is between those two students and that the parent is walking out changed. Like, if you can start changing their perspective or getting them looking inside in ninth grade, that would be huge for conversations that are to come.

Jared 19:12
Yep. And then I think families are having this conversation at home, because you’re also giving parents the tools to be like, talk about these things. Talk about what lights you up inside, what are the skills that you feel like you’re developing? What are the clubs and activities that you want to be doing? And I think that’s where, like, the cultural shift comes in. And it takes time, a lot of time, but I think if we were working backwards to slowly bring that in, starting as like, eighth graders rising into ninth grade. Not that everyone will always subscribe to this, right? You’re always going to have those who think prestige is the most important thing, but.

Lauren 19:43
Is that one of the values in the deck that they could even name?

Jen 19:46
Yeah, it is.

Jared 19:47
I love that you asked that.

Lauren 19:49
I mean, then you really get to see, okay, this is important to them, so let’s do it.

Jen 19:54
But full disclosure, we use these cards that we created, right on the back, you flip them, a QR code takes you to this curated list of schools that we’ve developed. But the prestige card doesn’t take you to them.

Lauren 20:04
Oh, tell me where it takes you. It’s like, so you got poked thing like, this is what we’re telling you not to do.

Jared 20:11
Yeah, right.

Jen 20:12
Well, we wrote, like, a very heartfelt article that is very aligned to your first question about sort of where we came from. Mine was about the bulletin board and high school.

Jared 20:22
Mine was about, like, I just had a student, you know, talking about, we should roll out the red carpet for every student and celebrate all college acceptances. So we both shared that perspective in this article to offer some tips, then to say, maybe instead of thinking about prestige, here’s another perspective we want to offer you to consider.

Jen 20:40
And it’s important that they’re honest, and they do pull it if that’s how they feel. Because I think the other thing that people sometimes trip over with us is we’re not saying that you should forget prestigious schools. We’re saying your How Come behind it has to be solid. If there’s an Ivy League school that you want to go to, but that Ivy League school really does honor your values, and you can demonstrate how come and the why, if I say, How come you want to go to Penn, Harvard, Yale, and you’ve got a good answer besides it’s a good school, then maybe there is value there for you, and you shouldn’t cross that off your list. But it also shouldn’t be the only school, the only type of school on your list.

Lauren 21:17
Yeah, you’re able to see the maturity in them, being able to elaborate on that answer, or kind of point them into some other directions, of say, hey, let’s examine this and see if that’s how you really feel. Like to me, it doesn’t sound like that, because you don’t really have answers for that.

Lauren 21:32
Okay, I know you haven’t been doing it for super long in your schools, but take the mental health piece with this. Like, are you seeing a shift in students’ mental health, or it might be too soon, maybe, to see that, or what has that looked like since they’ve been looking at some of the more intrinsic values than extrinsic in their college search? How does that affect their mental health?

Jared 21:53
Yeah, there was a student who came to do it an assignment for a class about starting to build a college list as a junior. And I remember coming in, and she’s just, like, paralyzed, like, I don’t even know where to start. There’s like, over 4200 colleges feels so overwhelming. I feel like, left out. My peers know about schools. I don’t like, I just don’t want to do this. So we did the card sort and linked her to our like website with all these school college profiles and everything.

Jared 22:16
And just to see, like, a student soften in the moment and shoulders go down and be like, wow, there’s like, places I’m excited about. I can go into my next class and we’re going to talk about college lists. And be like, you know, I looked at this website, I found 10 schools that I really like, and here’s why. And to think about how that impacts peers, then too, to be like, here’s how I found them. So I think about the intensity that students feel at the gate, like the pressure of I have to figure this out, and it feels so overwhelming, choice overload, to then do it this way, softens it. And you just find students be like, Okay, this is doable. I can figure this out, and you’re just having a warmer, more heartwarming, fun, joyful conversation.

Lauren 22:56
I was just gonna say like you as a counselor, are enjoying your job more because you’re having richer conversations. You’re not the robot who’s going through the checklist of things you have to get through, because there are all those things that we have to get through, but you’re getting to have, like, the real conversations with students and seeing them, like you said, seeing their shoulders relaxing, their guard come down, that’s really rewarding as a high school counselor.

Jen 23:16
It really is.

Jared 23:17
And you’re facilitating. Like, I think the beauty of like, using our counseling skills to navigate complex and difficult conversations between students and parents and students who come in carrying that weight. I feel at the end of those meetings, I’m like, no longer this robot who’s like, and now take an SAT. I’m like, wow, that was using some real counseling skills, and kids feel better.

Jen 23:40
Yeah, there was a student this week that I had done it with, and part of our process is this set of questions. So let’s say the 15 schools that we have on the list for whatever reason, maybe geographically, demographically, whatever it might be, size, it’s not the right fit for you. So you know your value is career, let’s say, but you’re struggling to find a school beyond our list that might fit that. We have 15ish questions, 15-20 questions per value for you to take with you to determine how is this value showing up on a college campus.

Jen 24:13
So this student this week had their three values, and we went through these set of questions for each value, and he had pulled, like, two or three questions from each value list, created his own question list with his mom, like, Oh, I think these would be the questions that would really help me identify. And he was like, I’m so excited to go to colleges now and make them super uncomfortable and hold Career Services accountable with these really tough questions on like, how is career showing up on your campus as a value. And I know now Mrs. Vallier, if they can’t answer it, maybe that’s not the right school for me, because this is, this is hyper important to me. And I think giving the students that sense of control and power on a college campus also brings the mental health into perspective.

Jared 25:00
Yeah. You put kids back in control.

Lauren 25:03
Because they’re probably frozen, again going on these college tours. It’s a big group setting. They’re with other parents who are holding those prestige values up high. And then they shrink back. They don’t ask questions on the tour. They just blend in with everybody else. If they go in equipped, they know what questions to ask. They know what questions to ask for their specific needs. That’s going to be a much more meaningful tour, more memorable. They’re going to walk away like, I can either check yes on that or cross it off my list because it really didn’t align like the website said that it did.

Jen 25:35
Exactly. And in this meeting, we spend a lot of time talking about how colleges are trying to sell you and you have to try to weed through, like, Is this really true for me and what I’m looking for? And the student had recently been to Goucher, and was sitting there going, you know what? He gave like a shout out to Goucher. And was like, they did a great job answering these questions, and I didn’t even realize they were doing it. But had I had this list, this would have been a great fit for me. And so I think there’s power, yeah, and giving students control, not only with the colleges, but sometimes with their families.

Lauren 26:04
I was just gonna say, with their parents, they’re able to stand up for themselves and say, No, this is a good fit because of XYZ. Like, if they get bombarded at the dinner table with questions and they don’t know the answers to that, then they shrink back there too. And their parents run the process, and we all know we want students to be leading this process.

Jared 26:22
1000%.

Lauren 26:24
I’m sure you’ll get the parents filling out the applications and the scholarships and the…

Jared 26:28
We’ll have a conversation like, well, WE have the SAT this Saturday. And it’s like…

Lauren 26:32
Oh, are you taking it?

Jared 26:35
Didn’t know that allowed that now, but yeah.

Lauren 26:37
We, yes. Like, I get it. You are, you have a big investment in this, but…

Jared 26:42
The level of WE, but it’s we are not applying. They’re applying.

Lauren 26:46
It’s the same everywhere, isn’t it? That’s reassuring. Well, I feel like we covered a lot of different things. Is there anything I didn’t ask you about that you wanted to touch on before I have you tell the listeners where they can find the values cards and and find more about what y’all are doing?

Jen 27:03
You know, I think, just like one thing, we all remember being new counselors, and for those of us who are put on the spot to create a college list your first year or two, that can feel so daunting.

Lauren 27:16
They want you to come up right there without googling anything like you’ve got the Rolodex in your head.

Jen 27:21
That’s right. Jared and I spend a lot of time talking about how we wish we had access to something like this that’s not as cumbersome as like, the list generators that you’ll find online. This one’s more meaningful, and I just think for a new counselor, this could be a really helpful resource. For a seasoned counselor, it’s a great resource for again, those hidden gems, to really hone in on mental health and think about like, let’s refresh my practice and how I’m approaching college meetings.

Jared 27:51
Yeah, make it fun for you again.

Lauren 27:53
This feels like a real, tangible counseling tool. You said it came from an idea that you had in private practice, and when you said that, I thought of a friend of mine who is former school counselor in private practice now, who does a lot of career counseling with values cards, and adults still need help with it, too. So like, let’s start that conversation early.

Jared 28:10
That’s what I was going to say. Like, I’ve worked with so many adults who we would do a value sort. And like, they would come to me because, like, I’m so unhappy in my job, and they’re 35, 40 years old. We would do the value sort and I just, they would always be like, Oh, so this is why I hate my job.

Lauren 28:25
Because it doesn’t align with me at all.

Jared 28:27
So then we’re thinking like, Well, then why are we not having these conversations starting much earlier, teaching the students, you know, the value in values driven decision making? And then ultimately, like, I just want kids to be happier and healthier and then become happier and healthier adults. That’s what this is all about. Like, maybe then we see less people at 35 or 40 being like, I have to completely pivot and give away a lot of my time and probably money to maybe go back to school or pursue a different path, because we just have been creating this pressure cooker of like, follow these steps, do this thing. We just want kids to be happier and healthier. That’s what this is all coming from. We want to change that whole narrative. You’re worth more than a college acceptance letter.

Lauren 29:11
I love that. Before we go, I am curious, what is your number one value in your values cards? Do you each have one that’s like, this is my number one?

Jared 29:19
We do. We like, tested each other, but we each, we have, we have top ones. Do you want to share yours first?

Jen 29:25
Yeah, oh, gosh, I have to pick one? One? We picked three.

Lauren 29:29
Okay, three. Tell us your three.

Jen 29:30
Okay. My mine was social connection, fun and adventure.

Lauren 29:34
Okay. And did you feel like your college experience was that? Or this is like, going forward, if you were to do it again, those are things that you would know that you value.

Jen 29:42
I am very thankful for where I went to school. It gave me a lot and pushed me outside my comfort zone, probably because it’s not where I should have gone. So it made me look for my people that weren’t easily found, and the people that I found are like my my people to this day. Tthey are not counselors, they will spend time to listen to this podcast, because they’re just my people now. But I don’t think that those values would have led me there. But what I think it did for me, thinking back on my life, is I found those values there.

Lauren 30:14
Like they make sense to you now, and they kind of were always there.

Jen 30:17
I found them on campus, even though the campus, like, I wouldn’t have put that school in these slots, I would have put Bucknell in other spots, and it is in other spots, but not in those slots, but I found them there.

Jared 30:29
Yeah. One of mine is also social connection. The other is creativity, and the last is activism. And I think similarly, I don’t know if I went into my search being like, it needs to be that. But like, for me, a driving force was music. Like, how can I be heavily involved on campus and music without maybe being a music major? And that was part of my life, and that’s what I found at Albright completely. And the social connection piece too. Like, it was small, and I was able to make some of the best friends of my life there. So again, it’s like, in retrospect, I’m like, yeah, a lot of that was really present. I wish I had the language or that somebody made me do this so I could have named it, because I actually picked a different school. And then my mom made me go back to Albright for, I don’t know if I ever even told you this story. My mom made me go back for one more tour. And we were standing somewhere, and I just looked at it. I was like, What was I thinking? Like, it’s here. It’s always been here.

Lauren 31:21
That’s cool. I like hearing that and just seeing how that has shaped you as counselors, and then even how you’re able to be reflective when you think back to your time in high school and your college search process. And it’s neat how, like that theme just kind of ties its way back through and, kind of like our strengths, like, I think they evolve over time, but I think, like, we’ve got these pieces of our personality that make us who we are, whether they’re our strengths or our values, and we see them nurtured if we spend the time doing that, spend some time reflecting on that. So your cards are really cool to give students that opportunity to think and reflect, and really cool for counselors too, just to be a tangible tool to do more counseling, because that’s what we’re always wanting to do. We want that time with students, and those direct conversations where we get to feel like we’re making a difference. And it sounds like your values tool is really doing that. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing about that.

Jen 32:14
Yeah, we love talking about it. I mean, I think as counselors, too, we, I don’t think we’ve met a counselor yet who hasn’t been like, yes, we need this, but we also haven’t met a counselor that’s like, oh yes, something like this exists yet. So I think it’s a tangible answer to a problem that I think most of us feel in the field.

Lauren 32:31
Or if they had it, they would go, Oh yes, this is just making what I’m already doing better.

Jared 32:37
Yeah.

Lauren 32:37
Well, I will link where they can find you in the show notes. But do you just want to tell us about website, Instagram, places?

Jared 32:45
It’s called Forget the Rankings, the values driven college search. So you can go to www.forgettherankings.com. We’re on Instagram as forgettherankings, Tiktok, you can find us on all social media.

Lauren 32:55
Okay, we’ll make sure all the listeners have that. Thank you so much, Jen and Jared. This was a rich conversation, and I’m so glad that we got to meet and talk about this, because I think it’s important for students and counselors.

Jared 33:07
Us too.

Jen 33:07
Thank you.

Lauren 33:09
I so enjoyed this topic, and you could honestly just hear how passionate Jen and Jared were about this. It all just feels extremely relatable. I know that I always laugh when I hear conversations happening on the other side of the country that I know are happening on this side too. It’s like we’re all in this together. Cue the high school musical soundtrack. Anyways, be sure to check out Jen and Jared resources at Forget the Rankings, and show some love to two fellow high school counselors who are being problem solvers and go getters in their school. We’ll see you next week.

Lauren 33:40
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of High School Counseling Conversations. All the links I talked about today can be found in the show notes and also at counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode. Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me a DM @counselorclique, that’s C, L, I, Q, U, E. I’ll see you next week.